All About PDTE (Pet Dog Trainers of Europe)

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All About PDTE (Pet Dog Trainers of Europe)

all right yeah we’re live, i think i don’t know if you have to wait a few seconds before people start joining us like you were saying i think you’re contemplating getting your fourth dog so i think we’re in a world full of you know we’re going to be facing an audience full of people who are absolutely dog crazy so this should be a really interesting conversation whether or not their wish might be to have a fourth one but there’s one that’s sort of come up who’s older who my heart has gone out to i know it’s a bit irresponsible but i do kind of there’s so many dogs but this one this one kind of struck a real chord with me so i’ll get started hi guys for those of you who are watching and who have joined us already i’d like to quickly introduce myself my name is Sindhoor i am the principal and director of BHARCS BHARCS qualification i’m a canine behavior consultant and a canine myotherapist so at BHARCS, we are focused on educating people about canine behavior we have courses for both pet parents as well as professionals so short workshops as well as a full diploma for professionals who want to work with dogs and i’m also the country representative for pet dog trainers of Europe so India country representative for pet dog trainers of Europe or PDTE so i am really excited to welcome our guest today who will talk to us a lot more about PDTE and pet dog trainers of Europe and why it’s relevant for us in India and how it’s different and all of that welcome Winkie we have with us Winkie Spiers today, welcome Winkie thank you very much it’s really nice to be here yes, i think it’s going to be an interesting conversation i’m going to quickly introduce Winkie like many of us, Winkie started out in the corporate world but luckily for us, she moved into the dog world she says that though she had several problem-free dogs, for a while her first ever rescue, a terrier named Dennis was really the dog that changed the way she started thinking about dogs at first she struggled to find an approach that seemed appropriate for both him and her but gradually through research and increased involvement in the dog world she discovered a more up-to-date forward-thinking methodologies which we will talk about today of course Winkie says that it’s due to this approach that Dennis improved immensely and she learned about how to communicate with dogs how dogs communicate what their instinctive behaviors are how different drives and instincts are different in different breeds how to look at the whole picture and not just the symptoms and how with a calm holistic informed kind and relaxed approach life can be improved immensely for everyone involved, Winkie now works professionally as a behavior consultant and speaks at seminars and workshops in the UK and abroad and her first book, How to Handle Living with Your Dog was published in 2008 by ShortStack publishing, Winkie is also the honorary member and chairperson of PDTE or pet dog trainers of Europe and a full member of APDT association of pet dog trainers and ABTC animal behavior and training council so welcome Winkie, we are so excited to have you here and i’ve already introduced you but i would love to hear from you a little bit more about you about Dennis and the work that you do well i live and work in London and i live with my three dogs, sadly Dennis died two years ago he was probably about 18, he was two or three years old when i got him and he was with me for 16 years so he was old and but he probably has taught me the most amount of any other dogs and after i lost him i took on another rescue dog who did really well by coming into a home with two dogs, i’ve had from puppies so he came into a very stable environment and and actually in just over a year, all of his problems that he had and he’s 10 now he was nine when i got him all of his problems just have really just fallen away without actually doing any training quite often doing very little and just making them feel safe and confident is the nicest thing we can do and he is

an utter joy so it’s very exciting that i have learned enough to be able to help other dogs and my heart really goes out to all the unwanted dogs we have far too many of them all over the world, that’s why i’m wanted but my passion really is working with pet dogs, i work with pet dog people i don’t do anything to do with showing or competition, it’s literally about people learning to live with their dogs and dogs understanding their people and creating harmony in the home that’s really what it boils down to right, i think a lot of times people have these expectations that they need their dog to be a certain way but eventually what most pet parents want is just harmony being able to communicate and seeing um and learning how to deal with some issues that they simply are overwhelmed with and just a little bit of guidance should really go a long way in helping them yeah, often clients say it just sort of sounds like common sense and it just seems so simple and it really is we make it more complicated most of the dogs, i see the things that people concentrating on are sitting, lying down, rolling over and giving a paw well those are completely irrelevant actually having a lovely relationship is the most important thing not a dictatorship, a boot camp and to you know to be able to just go out walking together for the dog to feel safe there’s so many different ways of doing it but we seem to have fallen for a long time into a habit of just telling dogs what they should be doing all the time which i can’t imagine is very pleasurable for them you know i’ve heard Turid repeatedly say life is not an obedience exercise what we really want from them is just allowing them, how to allow them to be dogs and at the end of the day i think that’s what we want as well it’s just allowing them to be dogs and learning how to be in harmony with it and be at peace with it and i think that’s really what we’re looking for but we don’t really know how to articulate it and end up trying all kinds of things in the process also people seem to be very competitive with their dogs it’s about showing off with their dogs and dogs have got amazing brains it just can’t make them feel good to be being told what to do and performing tricks and things it doesn’t seem to be what they want to do, i think that if dogs wanted to spend their life sitting lying down, doing tricks we might actually see them doing it of their own volition but funnily enough we don’t so maybe they don’t like doing those things so much yeah i mean i spent a lot of time studying street dogs and yeah you don’t see them doing tricks but i mean they have an amazing brain the kind of things that they’re capable of doing it’s just incredible you never think dogs are even capable of things like this i think we miss the point about what they’re really capable of and get them to do things that they’re not interested in, that doesn’t really enrich their lives in any way if we’re having to use loads of food to motivate them if we’re having to motivate them that hard they’re probably not really wanting to do it, it’s not really something i would offer Winkie i want to talk a little bit about pet dog trainers of Europe or PDTE so can you tell us a little bit about PDTE and how it’s actually different from other organizations okay, pet dog trainers of Europe was Turid Rugaas’ inspiration in 1998 she had obviously already been teaching and knew lots of people and she decided with a few others to set up an organization for like-minded individuals because it’s very different because what Turid was teaching at that time really went against all of the traditional obedience type things and it’s very difficult if you’re kind of if all you want to do is competition obedience and then people don’t really understand the kind of complete difference between it so being with a group of like-minded people means you can share ideas and progress yourself and teach a better message to more people doing it on your own can be very lonely so her inspiration was to join together with like-minded individuals to share a kinder more ethical way of living with dogs and that was in 1998 and it was just about having a better understanding and a kinder approach to training and living with dogs and this year actually Turid celebrates 50 years of being a dog trainer so she’s been a dog trainer for a very-very long time

which is amazing and so that’s when it started i didn’t join PDTE until 2005 and i was the 36th person to become a member so it was quite a long time, so things have changed enormously since then but it has, we are a group of people who abide by code of ethics and have a belief of things that we we hold very dear to our hearts and with the dog’s welfare as primary importance, where they can sit lie down or do tricks or is completely irrelevant really what we want them to do is to be able to live their best lives and it’s by being together and learning from each other that we will change things some of other organizations they’re professional organizations but they don’t have the strict ethics that we do so we’re a little bit more kind of strict about the approach so there’s a lot of things that we like and don’t like and if you want to join PDTE it’s not as easy as it is in some organizations and we do look at we do want our members to do continued professional development every year and to be the best that they can, to not just do a training to be a dog trainer and then carry on doing the same things that they’ve been doing for the last 10 years so there is a case where some people have trained and then haven’t updated it at all and things change all the time with all the lovely research coming out we learn more, so the way i’m training now, to where i started and to even last year i would think that each year i learn more and i’m going to keep changing what i do to make it better and in the beginning when i joined PDTE i did feel quite lonely because i was the only kind of non-traditional dog trainer in my area in fact quite a large area so my friends when i joined PDTE were mostly abroad because there weren’t many people here in the UK following the same ethos but now luckily the PDTE has grown and now we have a lot more friends and we can all share but it’s nice to be able to share in a safe space with people with like-minded opinions and thoughts how many members does PDTE currently have Winkie do you know the number of the top of your head we currently have in total we currently have 188 members and that’s based on, at the moment this is the time of year when members renew their membership so that’s based on currently there are still people who haven’t renewed yet so any PDTE members who are listening if you haven’t filled out your membership renewal please get on and do it now because otherwise, it’s a nightmare for our membership, Karen to be able to deal with all of it all at the same time and within that in fact today we have friends of PDTE and today we had a hundredth friend of PDTE and that hundredth person was from India so we have a 100 friends and we have 108 members in total and that is across 22 countries which is amazing so i think that’s kind of also, what i want to touch upon but we’ll come to it a little later just because it’s called pet dog trainers of Europe doesn’t mean that it’s only members from Europe, we have members from all over the world and of course India as well so and therefore it’s definitely relevant and useful for us as well so we’ll talk about that as well for those of you who Winkie did mention Turid Rugaas so Turid Rugaas is my teacher as well and i studied with her like Winkie mentioned, she’s been doing this for more than 50 years this is her 50th year and she also a few years ago, was that three years ago she won the King’s medal of honor in Norway for her contribution to the world of dogs which for us in India is, maybe the equivalent of like a Bharat Ratna award that we have you know being awarded that in the field of working with dogs is incredible and her her big contribution really is documenting, identifying, documenting the signals that dogs use to communicate with each other and there’s a lovely little book called On Talking Terms With Dogs that’s available, so any of you who want to know more about it just pick up that book it’ll absolutely change your life so Winkie did you know Turid before joining PDTE yes i did, yes i did when i first started when i first got Dennis i started learning, i did speak to some professionals but i didn’t really like what they had to say it didn’t make any sense to me so my first course that i went on was up

in Staffordshire and it was Ali Rowbotham was taking a course on rescue and rehome dogs and Ali Rowbotham is a great friend of Turid’s and she was one of the founding members of PDTE and i was lucky enough to go on a course and listen to her and oh my god it blew my mind listening to her and then i did a two-year international dog training education with Sheila Harper who had learned from Turid but was also at a time when Turid was coming to the UK all the time, she was doing weekends summer camps so for the first sort of five years she was over here all the time, i did every course that Turid did i stalked her i did every weekend course and every summer camp and i did Sheila’s International dog trainer school and i also got to know Ali Rowbotham who’s now one of our honorary members because she was in at meeting at the beginning with Turid to set up the PDTE, which was actually the summer camp i believe in Scotland, when they discussed setting up PDTE so Winkie you spoke about the PDTE code of ethics and i know that, that’s really where the big difference is so the PDTE code of ethics actually says something interesting, it says that people cannot use punishments when dealing with dogs so could you tell us a little bit about why that’s actually part of the code of ethics of PDTE, why do you think you know there’s a common misconception that you know spare the rod and spoil the child and that seems to have kind of translated over to dogs in some cases to say hey you know the dog needs to be disciplined once in a while otherwise, the dog is going to be spoiled and going to be doing whatever he wants to so what is your opinion on this well, back even as late as the early 60s in the UK it was actually legally okay for a man to discipline physically his wife and children you know because it’s all about control and we do know that punishment in terms of looking at science and research we know that punishment is really not very good and it’s been proven again and again not a great way to learn and that positive reward-based training is a better way forward, a much better way forward, more ethical way forward and there are some organizations who don’t mind if people punish dogs and punishment can be very subtle you know locking in a cage, looking away for long periods of time, tying them to a tree for the whole of their life doesn’t need to be hitting or anything there’s a lot of subtle ways of being unkind and PDTE is about promoting kindness and have better knowledge so we would hope that anybody who wants to become a member of PDTE has already read the code of ethics and prepared to abide by them and to turn away from these outdated horrible ways of living, punishment nobody should live under the threat of punishment and i know that you know it was okay certainly when i grew up as a child you know it was still legal for men to do that and now it’s not but i know in many parts of the world it’s still okay for men to beat their wives and there’s you know so of course if we can’t be nice to other people it makes it very difficult for people then to be nice to animals so i don’t really see any difference if you’re an unkind person we know for sure that statistically people who are cruel to animals are quite often sociopaths and have some other very anti-social behaviors with other people so i don’t think cruelty has any place, i think that you know we think of ourselves as being humane and we think that we’re incredibly smart and that you know but people do seem to be rather kind of unpleasant and dominating you know we are the only species that want to dominate every aspect of the world and you know cut down all the rainforests and destroy the ocean and over fish things and kill things and you know do scientific research on them i mean we’re pretty nasty as a species so you know it follows that we do seem to think that it’s okay to do unpleasant things but PDTE, Turid right from the beginning made the stand that this is not anyone who wants to join PDTE needs to leave that behind and needs to agree to that because there’s plenty of organizations where you don’t have to abide by a code of ethics so, if you want to join PDTE you do need to be a particular type of person who’s willing to make that change and stand by it you know Winkie when we talk about punishments we often have this conjure of this mental image of somebody being horrible in terms of either beating or flogging the dog but from what i’ve come to understand when PDTE talks about punishments

it also extends to things like just scolding the dog or you know i’ve heard people say hey i didn’t hit the dog i just picked up a stick and you know threatened the dog i didn’t cause physical harm is that an issue with you know just, as they say just scolding or threatening the dog the dog, can that cause any can that cause any issues in dogs well of course it can because actually you know if we hit a dog you know bruises will heal wounds will heal but it’s the emotional aspect of this so you know when we take on some of the rescue dogs i’m sure you’ve seen them they’re really shut down and you know they’re really in a very sad place they don’t even do anything they don’t feel safe and i think that all animals need to live you know we should all be able to feel safe in every area that we go into nobody should be living in a place where there’s this threat the constant threat and in fact i think it’s the emotional aspect of abuse that’s actually almost worse because you know physical wounds will heal but the brain quite honestly it is a completely different thing so our body language certainly in my puppy classes and things i teach people, even just something simple like doing house training with a puppy if they’re having an accident on the floor they go ohh and they kind of really, then that can be that can be actually a little bit worrying and then the puppy thinks that every time they go to the lure then the human gets very upset because we don’t even need to say or do anything picking them up, when they’re in the middle of doing a wii, that’s actually slightly aversive so we don’t really consider and i think we have to think, if i was a dog or a puppy how would i like to be treated and i think that using empathy can be really great and i’m not saying the dogs are people or people are dogs or anything like that but i do think that we do need to be more respectful of our relationships with animals and and with each other you know that there is also the thing in terms of dog training that you know some people are very kind to dogs but they’re not very nice to people i think really being kinder, a bit more understanding to everybody all the time would go a long way in making things a little bit better but it’s really dogs you know i love all animals actually there’s no animals i don’t like but i do particularly love dogs and i would just like to see people get the most that they can out of the relationships because they can really help us to grow as people when we start to really look at it and understand it but a curse word, being ignored, can be very that can be quite unkind, that’s quite a sort of powerful tool there’s also a lot of talk about positive reward based training but if you’re going to make dogs really desperate for food if they’ve just had a meal then they might not be bothered about your treats so often people sometimes seem to be withholding food so that to make the dogs motivated and i think that’s also not very nice, some of the equipment can be quite punishing in terms of people using harnesses, where the dogs can’t actually move their legs they’re using prong collars, choke chains, slip leads or just a normal lead but even if we yank on a harness that’s going to give the body a real old jolt and you know, we know ourselves, if you have a jolt, if you do an emergency stop in your car you’re likely to have some head pain, neck pain and back pain for some time afterwards but we don’t walk around groaning about it all the time and i think that you know it’s just about being respectful and kind and having empathy and it’s interesting that you bring up empathy because often you hear people saying hey they’re not human beings they’re dogs they’ll stop treating them like human beings and you know the question i typically ask is yes they’re not humans they are dogs but that does not mean that we have the license to be unkind to them treating them like a dog, yes i encourage my clients and my students to treat dogs like dogs but what i mean by that is you recognize them and appreciate them for being dogs, it doesn’t mean it gives you the license to be unkind we should relish who they are and often i think people sort of you know say do not attribute human emotions to dogs but emotions are not our you know unique to human beings emotions are something that is across many animals and many species Dr. Marc Bekoff has this brilliant book called The Emotional Lives of Animals and he’s going to be talking as well at the PDTE summit which we will talk about in a little bit, but you know it doesn’t it doesn’t make sense for us to and there are no scientific studies that go out to actually

show and demonstrate that animals experience emotions i mean scientific studies that show that animals experience pain and that’s just heartbreaking for me how do we give ourselves the license to say unless proven we will assume that animals don’t experience pain it just gives us the license to do horrible things when we make assumptions like this we do have to count but we have to count for their emotions and respect it as well yes we definitely do, you know we take them to live in our homes and we we need to give them choices and we need to respect the fact that of course they experience pain, it’s been proven by science repeatedly but we sort of prefer to think that they don’t have emotions and they don’t feel pain and they’re not like us in the slightest but in one of the really one of the facts i learned about dogs, quite a long time ago and i think it was Adam McCloskey a Hungarian scientist, dogs are the only species that have the left gaze bias are you familiar with the left gaze bias? yes, yeah yes talk to us about that that’s very interesting and it’s really interesting and they’re the only species, none of the primates have the left gaze bias no other species on earth apart from humans have it but dogs do innately have it and i find it absolutely fascinating that in the 14,000 or so years that they’ve lived alongside people they become so in tune with being able to read our emotions that they’ve ended up having the left gaze bias because it’s in their interests to know how we are and if we’re in a good mood or bad mood or whether we are going to be unkind to them or not Winkie why don’t you tell us a little bit about what the left gaze bias is for those audience who don’t know this for people who don’t know the left gaze bias is fascinating when we look at somebody, so i’m looking at Sindhoor and i’m actually looking to my left because i’m looking at the right side of her face so the right side of our faces show the most emotion and most people are really unconscious of this unless you’ve kind of read about it or learned about it so whenever we look at somebody we’re actually looking to the left, to the right side of the person that we’re facing because it’s the side that shows us more emotion and dogs do this and they’ve not trained it and from what i understand from his research it didn’t need to be dogs or pet dogs or anything they all have it, wolves don’t have it but domestic dogs do and it’s fascinating that they’ve evolved to do this entirely of their own and it just shows actually how amazing their brains are that they innately have this in them and the evolution has taught them this so in terms of us learning about dog calming signals and body language we’re amateurs because they read our body language way better than we’re ever going to read theirs, they are so super smart, really super smart yes but you know people don’t realize you know we have dogs who can find counterfeit money can find landmines, can find ammunition can find people, can find people who are alive under collapse structures, can find cadavers underwater they can do the most amazing things, the ethologists work with them sort of finding backscat or redneck turtles for example the things that they can do, we cannot do we can’t even create a machine that can do most of these things and then people sometimes think dogs are a little bit stupid, i think it’s probably oursleves who are a little bit stupid but we don’t really recognize how great that they are but they’re not alone to be honest all animals have limbic systems, they all have all the different parts of the brain they’re in different proportions to our brain all brains are different to all the animals but it doesn’t make any of them any less special Winkie so we were talking, you mentioned sort of rescue dogs that can be quite shut down because of what they’ve been through and how we need to be empathetic towards it now one of the things we also see is some dogs that have been through a lot of fear express it in a way that is very counterintuitive to us, which is that they may be reactive or what people call aggressive and sadly it’s very common for people to be told that these dogs are being dominant whether they are misbehaving or you know whether they’re being aggressive that they’re being dominant and the way to get compliance from such a dog is to dominate them back so could you discuss a little bit about your opinion on this topic, do you think these dogs are being dominant, should we be dominating them i think that the only dominant species are humans, we are the only species that try to dominate the entire world all the time dogs aren’t dominant if we look at the true meaning of the word dominant you know that dogs are not they just behave in ways that work for them Barry Eaton wrote a really-really

brilliant little book gosh, a really long time ago and i was lucky enough to hear him speak a few times and absolutely fascinating so Barry Eaton’s book on dominance is great but it has been debunked by science many-many times, i went to a science symposium a few years ago and listened to you know when we go and listen to sermons of the great scientists, Alexandra Horowitz Daniel Mills, there’s loads of people and there’s so much research debunking all of this and yet people want to hold on to this dominance pack leader stuff which is just has no relevance in the dog world, this is not how it is i think because human beings are so dominant we just assume that all other species have it in them and they actually don’t because they’re not going around trying to rule the world and in fact if they were i think almost it would be better if they did they might do a better job of it than we do but it’s you know they’re not trying to control the world what they do, do, dogs who are very frightened of things will try to control their environment and they try to control their environment with things a little bit out of control to make themselves feel safe and to bring themselves you know to create a kind of safe space for themselves but it’s really us that’s doing it so when we look at the difference between street dogs and pet dogs street dogs tend to be a lot more curious they seem to have a lot less problems with each other, they’re certainly not going around eating toys and stones and things which are dangerous for them, that’s our pet dogs and that’s because of the way that we look after them so people often don’t think it’s important to learn how to look after a dog because of course nobody needs to learn how to do that but i think we almost we need to learn a lot more about how to about understanding ourselves and our motivations and why we do things understanding more about people is very relevant of your dog trainer because actually we’re training people not dogs but understanding more about dogs is you know it’s disrespectful to not understand them inside and out which as you know we’ve been on courses to understand about anatomy and physiology biomechanics, how the brain works body language recognizing symptoms movement, all sorts of things because by understanding a lot more then we can really help them but actually i think we all need to learn a lot more about people because we all live with other people but we seem to be woefully misinformed about people and quite often i do the birds and the bees talks about dogs and because people have a puppy there’s a female or a male and they kind of think some things they’re a bit unsure about and then sometimes it sort of it astounds me sometimes that people know so little about they live with a human body and they don’t know very much about how their own body works which is sort of you know i think i love learning i absolutely love learning i find it fascinating but it is always about finding out more and when we do find out more we know that dominance it doesn’t exist in dogs you know we have been observing street dogs for a while now and there is another lab in Kolkata that observes street dogs and we see that their social structures are nothing like what these myths talk about, they’re not hierarchical linearly hierarchical social structures with a clear dominant leader and alpha and things like that, it’s incredibly fluid social structures it’s absolutely fascinating it’s so hard to put it in a box and define what their social structures are because they’re just not limited to their group they interact with members of other groups, they do different activities with members of other groups so you know i look forward to more studies on street dogs that tell us what kind of social structures they have because it’s fascinating really it’s almost like a you know a television soap the kind of drama that goes on in there and it’s wonderful, it’s so rich and no one understands that, it’s really sad to simplify it and think of it as a linear social structure with an alpha and to imagine that they are sort of in competition with us to take on this position and that we have to sort of assert ourselves as the leaders and it’s really sad that this idea has caught on and seems to be so popular i think some of it comes from fear i think that humans, we quite often i think that the human behavior, quite a lot of human behavior comes back through fear so if you’re frightened of something then you’re more likely to be a little bit more dominant or aggressive towards it so i think that the people who really want to kind of dominate dogs sometimes maybe have a fear, an underlying fear because i think if you’re sort of confident and happy, i’m not sure that you would i’m curious, i don’t think that you would feel like that towards dogs and even though all the wolf people have

moved away from all the dominance and pack theory, so David Mech when we listen to some of the wolf pathologists not the stuff that we have on television that’s literally just for viewing figures and making money but we know there’s a whole different side to it and it’s a fascinating side it’s so interesting but sadly people like the sort of sensational side of things the wolf living in your living room and all this kind of stuff and it’s some people have to you know they want their dogs to be a bit dysfunctional as a sort of status thing and it’s really i think that probably if people understood a little bit more about how their own brains work and what their motivations are that it would help them to understand things in a more kinder and a more empathetic way yeah i think we keep coming back to that kinder and empathy and i think that’s kind of the key here so Winkie i want to touch upon another thing that’s part of the PDTE code of ethics the PDTE also discourages use of choke collars and flat collars and instead encourages use of harnesses why is that, why does the PDTE take that stance because something around the neck quite honestly it’s very useful if all the blood and oxygen gets to the brain if you’re trying to do any dog training we’ve also there’s a lot of science that supports the fact that if a dog sort of if they experience pain they can associate what they’re looking at with the pain which can contribute to sort of reactive type behaviors and it’s not all harnesses that we like anyway because some harnesses actually prevent the body from moving or they’re tightened so it’s the sort of y-shaped harness that’s on the sternum and on the bony structure of the dog and it should be well fitting so not all harnesses are the same but anything around the neck has the potential to do quite a lot of damage we’ve got we’ve got Jean Dodds, Dodds’ one of our keynote speakers talking about thyroid issues in dogs well where’s the thyroid it’s around here so if somebody’s yanking away on the dog’s neck then they could be damaging the thyroid and that there’s a lot of but generally i think blood and oxygen should be getting to the brain and we know that if we look at anatomy and physiology as you have as well that their neck is built very similar to ours so would you feel very comfortable i wouldn’t feel very comfortable if i wore a collar and somebody was holding onto it and would occasionally kind of yank on it there’s a potential to do harm so what we really want to do is think about that do no harm, we don’t want to do any harm so by using a well-fitting harness it means that if we do if our lead handling skills are not very good there’s less potential for us to do that dog harm so it’s about them living as pain-free as possible i mean i have heard people say that a dog’s anatomy is different and that they have extremely thick muscles around the neck and therefore they cannot be damaged but if you really look at this you know an anatomy textbook what you see is yeah sure they do have really thick muscles on their neck but the bulk of it is on the back but when you pull the collar, the pressure is here you can, literally if you pull it hard enough you can hear them choke so you can literally hear the you know so things like laryngeal paralysis are on the increase and we often see dogs when they get older they’ve got head over on one side and people say no they’re fine well how are they fine because they can’t tell us so i would much rather er on the side of safety that i’m not potentially doing any harm be my goal we lost you for a little bit there, but yes of course i sort of wanted to add as well that are you having network issues i think i am can you hear me okay yeah now yes has it sorted itself out i can hear you i can hear you now but your videos is kind of frozen you know i sort of wanted to add in that that’s okay i think when your network gets better it’ll unfreeze what i sort of also wanted to add in is when i learned about the damages that

a collar does to a dog the range of things that it can do ranging from hypothyroidism to headaches to cracked tongue bone, to spondylosis and spondylitis, nerve damage, glaucoma it’s just mind-blowing or you know the extent of issues that it can cause and there are actually now studies that show us that they actually do cause these things so then as like you said it’s simply not worth the risk if you know the list of issues can be so wide and so dangerous i would always rather er on the side of caution right exactly on a somewhat similar i think topic, the PDTE also kind of discourages the use of crates Winkie and that’s an interesting one because you know a lot of people do encourage the use of crates so could you explain a little bit as to why the PDTE actually discourages the use of crates well, there’s a common myth that dogs like to live in a den well i haven’t seen any street dogs living in a den, i don’t know if you have and it takes a lot of time and effort to get any animal to want to live in a cage i don’t think living in a cage is a nice thing to do but they call it a crate but it’s a cage and i think it all came from America because when i grew up with dogs as a child we never used cages and you know i’ve lived with 15 dogs and i have never put anyone in a cage and i’m never going to in the future i just, they should feel safe in the whole of their home not just in a metal box and if i’m off in my home but if somebody went out of my front door and locked me in i would immediately feel less safe in my home so i think if the only place you feel safe is locked in a metal cage i don’t think it’s very nice and caging things is what we do to people who are very naughty we put them in prison it’s taking away your liberty, taking away all of your choices it’s a punishment, a lot of dogs will go into a confined space to lie down if that’s how they feel at that particular time but dogs are polyphasic, which means they like to move around in sleep so locking in a cage actually inhibits normal dog behavior and i think that is a huge issue and i don’t think it’s what they would choose so i don’t think that any of your street dogs are going to go and find the smallest box on the dump site and sort of get into it and close the door it’s just not what they would choose and people tell you know they love it but they love it after a month of being locked into it and crying all night and nobody listening to them so for me it’s not you know i don’t like animals in cages i don’t think that caging is a nice way of behaving and clearly Turid doesn’t because it’s been something that she’s been very has very strong opinions on right from the beginning but it seems to be on the increase sadly but there aren’t any scientific studies showing that it’s a great thing to do so i’ve looked, i can’t find any scientific studies saying keeping your dog in a cage you end up with a really functional dog you can’t possibly because dogs need to act out normal and instinctive behaviors in fact i think there are a few that talk about the ill effects of confinement in animals and the kind of problem in behaviors so while there are no studies that tell us that it benefits them there are actually studies that tell us that it can do harm and from what i understand crates are also illegal in some countries it is and street dogs you can’t imagine them imagine locking them up in a small box and them putting up with it they don’t they not only do not like it they actually hate it and they will express that as well most of them are seen sleeping on top of elevated surfaces or on top of cars and on top of so if at all they’re car sleepers they’re not den animals so don’t behave like that yeah getting up high of course makes them feel safer it probably gives them an opportunity to look out and see what’s coming from a distance, that’s probably why they like it, yeah it’s really interesting i ask for pictures of street dogs sleeping and more often than not, you get pictures of them sleeping on top of sand piles on top of cars at least and if they’re a group of them at least one of them typically sleeps at an elevated position so that’s really interesting so one seems to have been given the job of the century you know lookout and let us know what’s going on well you get that in a lot in a lot of animals where you know one keeps a lookout so they sleep safely it seems to be quite a normal thing it’s a good survival strategy

right and again that doesn’t mean they’re being dominant it’s not that the dog on top is the dominant one it’s just a job like you know like a security guard or it’s just a job that they’ve been given or they’ve taken on so Winkie the other thing is many of us at the PDTE and i know this having been part of the PDTE, many of us focus a lot on calming dogs down, that really seems to be instead of training them our focus seems to be how do we get them to be calmer dogs so why you know can you talk to us a little bit about the significance of why it’s important to calm dogs down well our adrenaline response is really designed for occasional use only not for daily use but it seems that a lot of training things think that the dog should be in a constant state of high adrenaline and be highly motivated almost hysterical but we know that if you’re in an adrenaline response, regular basis it’s actually not very good for your physical or mental health so what we’re looking for is balance of course you know have busy days, have fun, have a nice time but to keep getting dogs into a wild state of excitement all the time is not desirable it’s not desirable in children either i don’t know people with horses and cats and things who try to get them wildly excited because a cat would be biting and scratching you, a horse would be like leaping around and probably kicking you and bucking you off if you’re getting really-really excited so the adrenaline response is really designed for occasional use only, not for daily use and this is really part of the problem is there’s something about humans that is indulged by seeing dogs being wildly excited but we know that once adrenaline starts being released into the system even when the stimulus stops that carries on for 10 to 15 minutes and it can be days or weeks for those adrenal levels to come back down to a normal resting phase and it’s really kind of stressful you know there’s a big thing in the human world stress, stress is just an excessive amount of adrenaline caused by over-excitement anxiety, fear, anger, frustration etc so what we really want is dogs about to engage their brain and to learn to think before they act where a lot of the games that people teach is all about acting without thought so if we act without thought we’re likely to be a danger to ourselves and other people whether you’re a human or a dog so being in a constant state of adrenaline, when we look at the ethogram of the dog and we look at the evolution of the dog, we kind of know it’s probably not really the best thing that we should be doing and quite often i see people sort of wanting the dogs to run and they’re throwing all their silly balls and things like that and it’s like do you know what i can see, somebody here could probably do a little bit of running but it’s maybe not the dog so you know people sort of dwell a lot on dogs being really physically fit where actually the brain is the thing that should be the most physically fit because it’s the thing that operates anything so in London, thousands and you know millions of dogs in London, about nine million dogs in London, it’s unbelievable and over lockdown everyone’s been getting puppies so if you’ve got a big dog who’s 30 kilos running around really fit, charging around with not a single brain cell operating that’s quite dangerous, they can run into people, knock people over they can you know run across roads they can have accidents and we’re having to share the parks with lots of people so if our dogs are going to be able to be safe they need to be able to think before they act and use their own brains they’ve evolved to become one of the most successful species on the planet by being supremely clever and yet we tend to make them a little bit stupid by making them just wildly excited and a bit silly all the time and i’m not really quite sure why we like that it’s fine to be silly occasionally of course it is but not every day, all the time to sort of get them into a state of high adrenaline because it’s not a healthy state to be in when we look at the physiology of the adrenaline response what are some ways to then calm dogs down how do we do it because we’re often told if you want your dog to calm down exercise them, make them run after a ball make them run that’s the way to calm dogs down so but we know that’s not true when it comes to calming down children or people or anything else the fitter you get a dog, the more physically fit they are actually the longer they can go and be naughty for and it’s just not a great thing to do and it means then whenever they see a ball it could be going on the other side of the road, it could be in the sea with the tide going out they’re going to keep going after it try and get it, it sort of undoes their survival strategies and any common sense whatsoever so they haven’t become such a successful species by being stupid for the last 14,000 years living with us but we kind of seem to want them

to become more stupid now and we do know that constantly being a state of high adrenaline actually does kill brain cells, it kind of does affect the brain chemistry so it’s you know you’re not going to be the smartest thing if you are in a constant state of adrenaline so it’s finding balance, if we look at the ethogram of the dog you know Amber Batson’s work is absolutely fascinating and she does great courses and you know eight percent of the day spent active and this is what you see with your street dogs you know what they like to do the street dogs are super smart and they’re not in a state of high adrenaline all the time so if the street dogs are not kind of just running around the parks chasing every butterfly and every shadow we know it’s not a normal dog behavior and you know people have lost sight of what are normal behaviors in our pet animals and domestic animals because if they really like doing it you know wouldn’t you know exmoor ponies been just galloping around exmal jumping all the hedges, well they don’t do that because the more energy you expend in evolutionary terms the more food you’ve got to find so it’s a terrible evolutionary strategy so we need to look at making sure that our dogs do live for a very long time, we invest so much time, effort and love into our dogs that to have them to live for a long time and to be really good health and have good quality of life then we need to address the physical and mental needs at all stages of life and to not just be kind of really silly with them okay Turid, i mean sorry Winkie i want to kind of come back to the topic of PDTE in terms of what’s coming up and membership so the first question i have for you is can people from India become members of PDTE of course they can they just go on to the website and fill out the form great and the other thing is we’re all very-very excited about the upcoming seminar the summit, the online PDTE summit can you tell us a little bit about that well because of obviously the pandemic, we can’t do anything in person so it was supposed to be in Norway this year, Turid was going to be hosting so we’ve gone online we’re doing a summit over three days and i’m really excited about it because my dogs i think it’s much nicer that i do loads more stuff online so i’m not leaving them all the time, so if we love our dogs they don’t actually want us to book a plane ticket and fly off somewhere and leave them for several days so for me it’s very exciting and we’ve got a really amazing lineup you know Marc Bekoff, we’ve got Jean Dodds we’ve got Matthew Van Fleet we’ve got got so many Jane Goodall, i mean just the most outstanding lineup including you with your new study the results of your student studies and it’s just always the PDTE AGM’s i love, i learned so much and it’s so inspiring to see such a wealth of knowledge within our membership but this you know to have all of you know we’ve got 10 keynote speakers we have 20 workshop hosts and every day is going to have a different theme, healthy dogs, the human animal connection and how to build a thriving dog community there’s going to be down time and things where people can connect and network with each other and there’s wellness breaks and social events i’ve never been to anything like this ever and i’m incredibly excited and i do think it’s the way forward, obviously it’s lovely to meet up in person but when we actually love our dogs and we want to spend more time with dogs hmm i don’t think my dogs like it i used to travel a lot more and go abroad and teach seminars and i stopped two years ago over two years ago now and i haven’t i’m not actually wanting to start jumping on a plane and flying off because i like being at home with my dogs and i like seeing my clients and i love teaching but i think that now that we’ve got all these different platforms i think that we can all learn a lot online i think that having practical work and doing stuff in person, i think there’s a huge that is a really good thing but i think a lot of the learning can be done online and then we can actually do specific practical work in person but i’m excited by the way forward it’s the biggest shake-up we’ve had in terms of education for decades, it’s incredible and PDTE, as far as i know, is the first professional organization to be putting on something like this, i went to the AGM and talked of another professional organization last weekend and that was online and it was just half a day and there was just one speaker in the AGM what PDTE are offering this year i think is outstanding, i’m incredibly excited so if you haven’t signed up for it get and sign up because i really think

it’s going to be a pioneering summit that’s going to change things and i think that’s good, i think change is good if it’s in the right direction non-members, everyone is welcome you don’t have to have a dog anyone can sign up and learn and meet other like-minded individuals who are absolutely passionate about all things dog a lot of the people who put their dogs first come from extreme, they understand they want to understand their dog before they really try and and not really try and change them but appreciate them for what they are and try to do things sometimes it may not be seemingly the most easy way to do things but people are willing to invest time and energy into learning about what is the right way of doing things that benefits the dog and it’s really nice to be around people who feel that way and share stories and we have workshop that are going to be a little bit more informal as well so we’re going to get to talk to each other not just listen to speakers and you’re speaking as well Winkie at the summit this year so i’m just really excited with all the talks yes absolutely, there’s Dr. Amber Batson as well, i didn’t know Dr. Jean Dodds was going to be there as well so i’m so excited about that and of course i think so i hope i haven’t spoken a lot to Jenna i think there she is okay let’s hope, she’s just a wonderful person to listen to and i was blown away that Dr. Jane Goodall is gonna be there too and Dr. Marc Bekoff these guys are just incredible the kind of work that they do so it’s really absolutely exciting and and of course i’m speaking as well so i can’t believe i’m sharing the platform with all of you guys it’s just i feel very special it’s fantastic, well i’m so i’m so pleased that you’re speaking because the first talk i heard you do about street dogs absolutely blew me away and totally changed the way i look at dogs it kind of gives us much sort of more rounded idea of what they’re all about so i’m very excited to talk amongst all the others like loads of them so i can’t pick which one which one to look forward to the most i just really am so excited about all of it i’m just going to immerse myself in it that’s the plan, that’s absolutely the plan loads of coffee and and i’ll just be sitting on the sofa with my dogs my dogs will absolutely love their AGM this year much more than ever because we’ll be doing it together that’s the plan, so Nishi, she walked in and i think somebody said hi Nishi she’s always the guest of honor she during the classes and things like that she’ll walk in halfway through and she always thinks i put so much effort into putting the talk together and the class together but she’s the one who seems to get all the attention so she’s just right here so there don’t seem to be any questions as such, i think this was a lot of information and i hope people sort of digest it and then we’ve given the website and check out the summit and definitely try and attend it i’ll share the URL of your website as well all of that on it thank you so much Winkie for taking the time to talk to us in India and hopefully, more of us will be joining PDTE and learning from some amazing people there excellent and i hope to meet loads more people at the summit it’s always a great opportunity and i think there is the possibility to sort of get into groups and as we do at the physical AGMs to kind of sit and have a coffee together and and get to know each other better because through PDTE i have amazing dog friends all around the world and it’s and always the AGM goes so quickly normally and as soon as it started, it’s almost finished we never have enough time but i think now with things like zoom and all the different platforms we should all be able to catch up with each other a lot more and it is by sharing our knowledge that we’re going to make a real difference all around the world absolutely and there’s a lot of knowledge to share among the members of the PDTE so that i really look forward to it all right Winkie thank you so much bye-bye i will see you at the end of September, bye

yes at the end of September, bye