Integrated energy systems and their role in integrating variable renewable energy

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Integrated energy systems and their role in integrating variable renewable energy

good evening everybody my name’s Tim green I’m the director of the energy futures my great pleasure to introduce our speaker this evening professor mark O’Malley he’s not a stranger to Imperial College by any means he’s been on the campus several times particularly in connection with helping you Kirk and some of its work but also it’s a collaborator with several of us on the campus Mark’s had a distinguished academic career at University College Dublin where he’s a professor and built up a large team in in electrical power networks and the energy Research Center and some important strategic relationships with the ESB and eirGrid in in Ireland but internationally with Department of Energy and National Renewable Energy Lab in in the US and is known for his work on the integration of renewables in in island nations systems and the management of intermittency you’ll see from his talking from from his title of his talk that he’s in more recent years moved to take a broader view of energy and he’s been leading UCD’s Energy Institute for a number of years and importantly was a co-founder of the International Institute for energy systems integration a topic which I think many of us in this room will know is an important part of our view of what the future of energy should be so I don’t want to steal mark’s thunder and and get in your way so I’m it’s my great pleasure to hand over to mark for his lecture thank you the Irish health isn’t much good okay okay thanks so before I start I want to thank Tim and Goran in particular for the hospitality they’ve shown me here over many years so they’ve always been the launches are really good but then again there was a dinner in Dublin that trumps them all so Tim is still trying to pay back with it for the dinner someday I’ll tell youse about that it was an interesting dinner okay so I’ve got 61 slides I you know I could spend an hour but I won’t tell spend around 40 minutes I go to it pretty quickly until you got some questions so I’ve changed the title and prerogative of the person he opened the front I can change the title it was called integrated energy systems and their role in integrating so I’ve just changed it around energy system integration it’s the same thing so let’s talk about I’ll talk about what I mean by at a definition in fact we’ve just we’re just about to publish a short paper trying to define what we mean by it because I think in fact that’s one of the problems is what does it actually mean and that’s something that people are struggling with so we’ve just published something on our website well sorry isn’t published yet we probably shortly so I’ll try to find it very quickly I will after my conversations with Gore and over the last 24 hours I decided yes I and he’ll and the low-carbon agenda in Tunis it’s mainly gonna be about renewables integration but I’m also going to talk a little bit about low carbon because it’s not just about renewables you know efficiency is a low carbon agenda and energy system immigration has a role to play in that the part that I know about most is about integrating renewables so I decided putting a low carbon I’ll talk about some of the International activities in the conclusion so here’s the definition and I welcome any comments on us now and in fact if anyone’s asked a question what I you know I’d rather take the questions now and then later whatever whatever whatever you way you feel this is our definition so far energy system an iteration is the process of coordinating the operation of planning of energy systems across multiple pathways and geographical scales in order to deliver a reliable cost-effective energy services with less on the environment it’s reasonable it’s not perfect you know you try to put a definition into one sentence it’s always a struggle but that’s what we got at the moment but I suppose graphically is the best way to show so what we’re trying to say is that this is a graphic that comes from this is yeah so this comes from NREL the National Renewable Energy Lab who I do a lot of I spent a sabbatical there in 2008 and I’ve continued to work with them ever since so myself and some people in NREL with some where I’m not a graphic artist obviously book they’ve great graphic artists and they came up with this so we’re trying to show it that these are scaled so this is single technology campus to regional so we’re trying to get the sense of this this building to this city to this big continental system so that’s a cross scale we’re also trying to look at the various vectors electricity thermal fuels data is not an energy vector

obviously well I suppose it is to some extent if you think but it’s a small energy well it’s a huge a neighbor of this and water as well it’s not an energy factor but I’ll talk a little bit about that so we believe it’s sort of the integration of these so these are sort of key statements about it optimization what actually what this optimization mean in this context it’s not just a simple equation any applied mathematician in here thinks he understands that word in this context he doesn’t and why because the consumer is involved they do not obey any models of mathematics they do the wrong thing so it’s optimization across multiple pathways and scales what they’re trying to do increase reliability performance minimize cost environmental impacts so you’ll see when I give some examples that if you take a holistic picture of the whole system across scales and cross vectors you can increase efficiency and in increased amount of renewables you put the system which reduces car which has to do with with sustainability some people when they see this they say to me mark that is everything and in many ways you could it’s not everything though we’re only interested in at the interfaces where the coupling and interactions are strong I’m just challenges opportunity so in other words where those places where these interactions of course scale or cost vectors cause you a problem or that’s a place we want to solve that problem or where those interactions give you an opportunity so it is quite focus it’s not everything and the control variables a technical economic irregular so we’re not just tell her about engineering we’re talking about economics regulation etc and in fact go even further we’re talking about human behavior as well water and I think it’s worth mentioning it water has two roles to play in this one is this is a slide I keep on room forgetting I should put in use with permission at issues permission so GE have a let me use it well they let me use it once I continue to use it but it’s a very interesting slide shown by better roles from GE and it says you know 47% of global water rely on power production resides in areas of significant water stress now that’s water – cool okay but also so that’s water enabling energy but also water is a huge user of energy so if you take California for example nineteen percent of all electricity in California is used to pump a process water I think in Ireland it’s around six or seven percent we’re not watching not sure but you know if you pump water and process water so we think water is a very important sort of element of this it’s obviously multidisciplinary a great word that people use it’s got you know regulation economics engineering etc so that’s the sort of introduction to us I’m Dan decided to take a sort of geographical approach to this and I’m going to talk about Ireland Denmark Europe I can’t remember where else China and I talk about a few and I’m gonna use them as sort of examples okay so Ireland my own country you all know where it is yeah will it be politically correct so Ireland so at the moment in 2015 provisional numbers show that we got twenty four percent of our electricity from wind we’re an island system and you can see it’s grown pretty dramatically over the last number of years we’re on our way to 40 percent by 2020 which is about four years away and that’s one of the reasons she it’s not the only reason but it’s one of the reasons that the research group that I lead has grown dramatically and that’s well in order to make this target as required an awful lot of work and because we’re not in system we actually have some pro that no one else in the world has I’ll speak about them as well on our website we actually monitor the wind penetration we strip it off the ESB and arrogance websites and we we present it hasn’t been very windy recently in fact all over Europe it’s been quite non windy in the last while so usually I’m able to pick a very recent few days and pick a very high penetration but in fact recently it has been out windy so about a month ago it’s a very high wind penetration in Ireland and you can see that 60% of our electricity about approximately 6% electricity was been produced by wind it’s in the middle of the night because the load is low cetera it’s very important to point out that this does not display snsp and I’ll explain what that is later so don’t ask me to but it’s very important to point that out okay and I’ll tell you why in a minute so we do get an awful lot of electricity from wind and people talk about who in the room understands a word flexibility hands up do you do yoga yeah the word flexibility has been coined in this area I don’t know when it started was it’s become one of the buzz words of the area around 10 years ago I didn’t think anyone mentioned it but and I’m probably one of the people who’s promoted I have to accept that maybe I’m too party to blame but flexibility and it’s very

simplest form is represented by this diagram it comes to Michael Milligan from an ralf National Renewable Energy Lab and if you know anything about power systems you’ll understand that we must maintain supply demand balance yeah almost instantly if we don’t we system blacks out etc so we’ve got here is you’ve got the load without wind and the load with wind and you can see the arrow is pointed to it when you put in wind whoops sorry so here’s that here’s the low profile okay as it usually is if you put in wind you know the economist will you know economically it’s got zero marginal cost you’ve put on its capital investment issue you will try and take it off sometimes you can’t but you’ll try and take it off therefore from an economic point of view you’re the rest of the system will try and match this blue profile as you can see the blue and red profile are different the blue profile is a bit more dramatic you have to go down lower I need to go down faster and that’s flexibility okay so flexibility is sort of the key issue in this area at the moment and I mentioned several times so how does Ireland to us we were an island system we have two interconnectors but they’re DC they’re quite small ralpherz – our system size and how do we do it well in fact how we do it is gas we have an awful lot of gas generation you can see in this diagram here this is gas generation sorry gus-gus yeah this is gas so you know and this is for is it yeah February 2016 this is pretty recent so you know 40% of Wrestler generation was from gas and in that in the month of May you can see the renewables with 30% because we’re at 25 percent approximately now maybe a little bit more but the winter it’s windier than the summer so we can get at the penetration levels of 30% 35% during the winter during the summer it’s lower so you can see that pretty much our system for February was gas and renewables and some coal and gas generation is very flexible but there is another thing about it there’s natural in bail flexibility this is where it gets subtle and these are as I call it dance partners and one thing I can’t do is dance okay I can do a little bit of yoga my wife’s a yoga teacher so I’m getting better eyes but I can’t dance at all I suspect most electrical engineers can’t dance I don’t know something about electrical engineers doesn’t know I don’t see you dancing bunny so I call this slide dance partners I we did it for a piece of work for the Australian electricity market operator a few years ago and they wanted to know and how does the Australian system compare with other systems in the world would regard integrating renewables they wanted to sort of lessons learned and you know what’s similar in our system what can we learn from you so they asked for this report that we did it’s downloadable there and one of the things we looked at is we looked at the correlation between wind and load because if you’re trying to match you know if you go back to this diagram here you know if the wind and load are highly correlated this this is not a problem yeah in fact it’s not a problem at all because in fact when it’s windy you have low etc so in fact the the correlation between the wind and load will drive this diagram okay so we looked at it and this is just one I mean you can look at this on a daily basis weekly basis are you there’s other ways of looking at this you know seasonal basis but this is the one I use for illustration purposes we looked at it we took every hour of the year averaged it over the year and just plotted it out okay so you can see that in Ireland if you look at the wind it’s got a diurnal pattern it tends to be windier in the daytime did you night we normalize into one and if you look at the load looks like this now I’m not saying they’re correlated but if you go to Texas this is air con Texas like they are not correlated essentially in Texas what happens is you know when that when the wind is high the load is low on average be careful on average this is an averaging effect you know so on average so pretty much you can see that we have from a point of view of flexibility we’ve got sort of inherent flexibility in Bill flexibility because our low tends to be a little bit more correlated with the wind okay and therefore flexibility is not something you have to buy it’s something that’s actually they or maybe and in our case it tends to be there in aircraft case it tends not to be there okay so it’s a very important part and I’ll come back to this later when I talk about the mountainside management one of the things that’s unique about RL with regard to integration is the fact that it’s a small synchro’s power system on the edge of Europe these are shown the syncro systems in Europe this is the main syncro system in Europe this is Great Britain this is Ireland it’s the nordella system Denmark interesting and office in two synchros systems okay and I want to talk about adding non-sync regeneration this is technology integration so one of the things that’s or not you know the definition is fairly broad but this is talking about new technologies been integrated to the system so I mean Tim and his colleagues are all hvdc people or you know pair electron external lot more of that technology going onto the system and there’s a whole issue of integrating that so not just about integrating renewables there’s also about integrating new technologies

this is renewables but it goes true a pair electronics device so it’s really sort of it’s not only is it the renewables you’re integrating what’s actually the technology this is a very simplistic extremely simplistic view of a power system and you know in a power system and the reason why so I should have pointed out that I show the tandem bike here is because that is an analogy for a sink with power system all these apologies for the January issue all these 10 gentlemen actually one or two none could be female in fact they all can be female there you go Jim said anything and but these 10 would look like gentlemen are cycling a bike together and they’re doing it together just synchronize if you were on a tandem bicycle cycling and you decided to go slower or faster the uterus what’s gonna happen you’re not gonna be able to do it you’re gonna have to fight against theaters I want to go faster they don’t want to go faster whoo-hoo here’s cycle a tandem bike no one it’s no one in this room every cycle a tandem bike I here in London I suppose I’ve cycled a tandem bike used to do it in college a friend of mine had one and every Friday night after the pole we used to cycle hundred senators City about four o’clock in the morning so we Society but I mean if you cycle a tandem bike you’ll find out that the person you know you have to keep in sync with the other person otherwise it doesn’t work so the analogy is that in a power system is the same synchro’s power system these blue things here are just look at the blue ones there are synchronous generators they’re all effectively look they’re connected to one rotating shaft they’re connected by chain so physically you know if this one here tries to go to a different speed in this one here something’s got a break either the chain breaks or something breaks so physically they’re just like that on the bike now in fact this coupling is not actually physical it’s actually the generators are physically in one location but the electrical power transmission system effectively from an engineering point of view causes this effective mechanic of hoping between them arrive in new technologies called a wind turbines modern wind turbines and solar PV and essentially what’s happening is first of all the coupling is not as tight this is in the older style wind turbines it’s sort of like an elastic band so yeah it’s still coupled but not as tightly and these things the more modern ones in PV they’re not actually adding to the length of this shaft because you see every time a generator comes on to it gets more weight so in fact the rotating mass that you’re talking about this is the speed of system as they add to English generator gets heavier you’re heavier heavier and what’s the one thing about rotating mass it stores energy 1/2 I Omega squared and therefore if you replace these synchronous generators with these things particularly these yeah what happens is this shaft doesn’t get any bigger in fact it gets lighter and so the power system itself becomes lighter lighter lighter lighter and that means the amount of kinetic energy stored in it is smaller smaller smaller that means if there’s an event in the system the speed of the system or the frequency falls faster and deeper and this is a problem because if it falls too fast too far you get into this zone here I don’t have the slide but I usually show a slide have easily blacked out or someplace that the system blacks out so when you’re trying to integrate this technology it’s not just forget about the wind and it’s flexibility requirements I talked about forget about forecasting it this is a technology integration issue in fact makes no difference what’s behind this it could be a nuclear power plant or the other side of the power electronics the same thing is going to happen and the reason you use pair electronics to integrate wind and solar is because from an economic and performance point of view that is the best thing to do but the same thing will apply no matter what the energy source so this is not actually a problem to do with integrating renewables it’s got to do with integrating the power electronics that connect the renewables but they are the best technology to do it so the Irish power system this is a thirty-day Chasseur because we’re an island power system and sorry if you go back to this each one of these regions is essentially a tandem bike yeah this is a very large tandem bike with lots and lots of generator so it’s half I only square it is extremely big but we are the smallest well sorry excuse me multi smaller but this system here is pretty small in comparison of the others and what it has to do with this problem essentially is related to the ratio of the amount of this non synchronous generation that you have put on will regard to your system size and to do with what faults could happen so what it turns out is if you look at these systems here the Irish power system in terms of where it has been where it’s going and where it is now has the highest penetration of non-sync regeneration of an ADIZ systems in other words our problem that this is describing is the worst in the world and therefore we have to deal with it now so there are I sometimes tell a joke about this anyone from Greece not that Greece is a joke but but the only other place in the world I know where this you know some Greek islands have a worse problem than this right but like I say in Greece when

the electricity goes out what do you do drink the beer and eat the ice cream the reason is their holiday their holiday destinations whereas Ireland has some of the most advanced intel fabrication plants in the world etc etc so it’s I hate to use the word it’s a serious power system is wait word I’d use Maju you know I would I wouldn’t mind been in Greece went electricity goes out I love ice cream and I love beer so be fine so this problem was studied extensively and one of the papers that came out of it is here and as many other reports but effectively this problem was studied extensively this is wind plus imports this is low plus exports if you look at this region here is is just not valid because in fact you’ve got more win and imports in your blows or not valid the analysis was done that as you and these lines here these sort of semi daring alliance which we sent 75% represent 50% represents instantaneous penetration at 50% and it’s 50% electricity is coming from these non sync resources 75% represents 75% electricity’s for announcer courses what we found is that yeah sure that the rotating mass reduced etc but you were still okay up to 50% but what we found is after 75% you in a major problem and between 50 and 75 percent you had problems but you could solve them there was engineering solutions so currently we have a limit of 50 percent and it’s called snsp synchronous not a system non-sync respond attrition I told you I’ll explain what it was later ok and this is 50 percent and we have a limit on it and why did I point out in the duck graph that it’s not snsp because we showed the penetration of wind to load this is actually wind plus imports over demand plus exports and the reason is because the imports and exports are by HVDC a cetera cetera cetera I won’t go into a Tim Nelson problem so the reason that the slammer is down there is because somebody sent an email to somebody in the grid company says you’re operating outside your limits it says why well cuz the ERC’s website says err but I got a phone call that said look mark can you put a little disclaimer in there to point out it’s not snsp so that’s why it’s there so if you look at this this is some do early 2015 you can see that at 50% snsp we are curtailing the wind we’re dumping it and this problem is getting worse and worse because look at the growth rate we have in wind it’s getting higher and higher so we’re starting to curtail more and more wind we still need curtailed I know what the numbers are maybe 2% 3% at the moment it’s quite small but it’s growing and as we go to a 40% it will grow and grow and grow so we have to do is for the economics is to push this boundary from 50 to 75 5% which air grid believe they can let’s be clear about it there’s no single power system operator in the world operating here we’re the only one and we’re the only one who’s gonna push this boundary to here as well so this is completely unique no one else is doing it they can’t learn from anyone currently the snsp limit is at 55 percent and they’re working to put them up to 75 percent but here’s the problem so this is showing snsp this is showing 40 percent energy on our system which is 2020 this is showing curtailment there is some base there is some curtailment for other reasons to do a transmission and other reasons that are back to the sort of a baseline of curtailment by 20 by 40 percent so you know that this is why it doesn’t converge to zero and but you can see that these are projections that 50% snsp we could be curtailing you know 25 percent of the energy which makes the economics terrible so they’re gonna have to try and bring it in closer and closer so they’re trying to get to 75 percent so containment rates of five or six percent economically are probably fine so that brings up the whole curtailment issue so this is a the reason I put this in here is that if you look at curtailment issue one of the things about curtailment is it’s no longer an electrical engineering problem it becomes a whole energy system problem you’ve got free energy essentially well sorry you’ve got energy that you have to dump then the question is what are you going to do it and then this is where the whole concept of their whole so it’s already integrated technology there’s only so much we can do with that and then all of a sudden you have this retirement issue where do you try and dump that extra energy so a large part of this is a research program called the energy systems integration partnership which is awarded last year it’s about 11 million euros and you can see that in this research project this is led by by myself and my colleagues you can see we’re looking at electric heating we’re looking at wastewater treatment we’re looking at the whole energy system not entirely but not in some way because of this they’re saying listen you’re gonna have times you’ve got this sort of free energy what you’re gonna do it so I want to talk about a rise in 2020 this will be of no significance to you by July you know so who cares that didn’t go down well there must be all vote no I don’t know which is scarier Donald Trump or

brexit I’m not sure why do you could probably take a double from from Ladbrokes could you anyway so arise in 2020 so one of the horizon 2020 parties that we’re doing at the moment that is related to this whole concept is called real value air and this is a project if you look at just I mean the reason that I mean I’m not here to go through the work packages I’m sure you’re not interested I wouldn’t be interested but just to look at it this is communications and aggregation this is consumer engagement this is modeling and simulation this is markets socio-economic missus demonstration you can see that this project has you know it’s got electron in Jenin and it’s got modeling it’s got the consumer so this whole concept is multidisciplinarity comes to for in this project what this project is about is to look at electric storage heaters have the company leading that’s called Len dimplex they’re an Irish company then deep lips are the largest manufacturers of electric heaters in the world now that they’ll who here has heard of lend impacts okay they sell an awful lot of their products though under other logos or like it’s a day ten they tend to buy our companies in other countries but they don’t then put their own logo on it so an awful lot of electric heaters in the world are actually built by them but they’ve got different logos on so Glen Dimplex an electric heating come in fact one of the biggest markets is here in the UK so they’ve developed a very smart electric thermal storage heating device it’s more efficient its IT enables you know it’s internet enabled all that good stuff the whole concept is can you use this as a flexible load on the system and its heat so what you’re now doing is you’re copying electricity system to the heat system and one of the reasons to do it I’m not going to time is of the essence here we’re we’re half of just these are bit details but basic well if I don’t just explain this one here so basically what you’re trying to do is you’re trying to run the power system and you’re trying to use the flexible load at your discretion but you’re also making sure that the consumer does not get impacted in any way so this shows some work we’ve done you’re you’re operating the load shifting resource the two lines here heating requirement and heat output they’re on top of each other in other words we’re saying yeah we can give the heat that the person needs that’s what on top of each other so we’ve done a lot of work in this area but let me go on to this one here one one of the advantages there’s many others is this curtailment issue yeah that’s not the only one this project is looking at ancillary services capacity although all those other things that energy shifting but one of the potential advantages is is that when you’re curtailing wind you can dump it into the electric storage heaters yeah but initial results in these are only initial results show you so this is snsp this is increased penetration level and these are preliminary results and they’re they’re not DC there’s no there’s no Journal paper so they’re very rough and ready you’re not saying if they’re just Elizabeth and what you see is that if you put in more of these devices what happens is the wind Potomac goes down because what happens is when you’re curtailing wind sometimes you say this is free energy patrolling for the electric chair and storage here and use it later and it’s storage but it doesn’t impact the co-chairman rate that much does it yeah the reason is this device is just not big enough yeah it’s simply not big enough yeah cost retirement in wind solar is different though coach Hammond in wind when it happens tends to happen big and happen irregularly if you look at the sort of all the statistics now I’m talking about our statistics I mean different wind is variable at all time scales and you know it’s it’s but somebody so when you’re curtailing it’s going to be a large amount of energy over a short period of time and these things can only take so much yeah so someone says well why don’t you make them bigger well yeah they’re already both you know it’s what you gonna do build an extension your house to put the electric chair so here you’re not going to do it so from a curtailment point of view these have advantages is no doubt about it may they definitely have other advantages in the ancillary services an energy shifting and the project will go into all of those so I’ll go to China because in China they do this at scale they use thermal storage he thermal storage that’s scale at an enormous rate and they also have a problem their problem is curtailment of enormous amounts of wind and solar and it’s not because of snsp right it’s because of other things and and solar PV is there just just a certain to backtrack a bit solar PV is different than wind in this respect why because the Sun comes up and the Sun Goes Down and therefore the solar pattern is more regular now in a minute to minute faces it’s still you know variable and all that good stuff but actually if you look at pertinent rates for solar you suddenly discover it happens a little bit more regularly and therefore on a sort of a one-to-one comparison with wind when it happens the volume is not as big because it happens more regularly because it got these more regular pattern okay and therefore Solar

is different in this respect so these are statistics the sources rap online dot org I don’t know if you know rap rap or a very good group you don’t know about Crotona this in China nobody knows it’s you know I know you mean sir so difficult numbers to get but any numbers you do see are large so this is showing Patel Minh rates for the first six months of 2015 in China I mean they’re showing a 42 percent curtailment rate and wind in Jilin province it’s enormous they’re ones in red are solar I mean gene Lane and where is Jian Jilin province is appear summer and I’m not an curtailment happens in China for a multitude of reasons right I’m not gonna go into all of them none of them have to do with our snsp absolutely none of them but in northeast China they use an awful lot of CHP and it’s centralized CHP so they burn coal and electricity is a byproduct the heat of the main product and they heat enormous complexes of apartment buildings like you’re talking about five and six hundred megawatt CHP plants or maybe even a gigawatt CHP plant yeah but the problem is they’re completely inflexible yeah they do one thing they produce heat electricity is a byproduct if you decide what’s what’s happening in Jilin one of the reasons that this is happening in Jilin it’s because what’s happening is is that up nice during the winter and in fact they have the opposite problem they’re you know they’re diurnal pattern is the opposite so in fact they have that air clock type problem as well so what the end of a situation is the only thing they can do is dump the wind they can’t dump anything else because people would would would freeze to that now that’s a simplistic view as a lot of other things going on there’s a lot of you know transmission problems there’s a lot of sort of regulatory issues as well but one of the reasons is that the CHP is not flexible so this is something I actually cut out of sent an email the other day by friends of mine who work in China you know China energy groups cry foul over Greek cooks they’re actually gonna bring the Chinese winner so she’s going to bring the government to court about this but I the reason I show it is because an awful lot of the problems are not actually physical problems they’re actually regularly problems you know you you can’t go and bring them some to court about curtailment the wind if the physics or get when you can it’s more than likely than an awful lot so it’s a regular issue as well so that’s why I put it up there’s other issues as well so we did some work with chef Ching hua University in this and they looked at sort of taking Saudis envelope so heat and power this is showing you CHP plus an electric boiler CHP plus heat storage and the combination of the two I want you to do is you put in heat storage you can actually then say well you know fine we can turn off the electricity because we don’t need it because we have heat storage and we get the heat from that so that’s the concept so this brown area here represents curtailment and you can see the businesses usual comparison with the other cases you get less retirement because what’s happened is you’re now putting the excess electricity into this heat storage but remember this heat storage is not thermal storage heater that that is 1 meter by 20 centimeters by whatever it is this is in that I think that should be meters cubed or not super sure with a number anyway this is in large buildings these are enormous heat storage and heat storage at the scale is much cheaper than heat storage is smaller and the reason is but if you take heat storage the size of this room look at its surface area and look at the amount of insulation you use do some numbers on it you find the whole system completely nonlinear if you make the heat storage 10 times bigger you don’t have used 10 times more material you probably have to use 100 times less material so it’s completely gnarly bigger you make it more efficient it becomes so the economics are good so in fact if you want to use heat storage with your talent build centralize heat storage enormous amounts of it so let me go on to this 100% wind will have to change how we live I know the wind spill from the offshore turbines accident has yeah as well has reached ashore anyway so it’s a funny thing so this is this is this is wind in Ireland 2010 data on a monthly basis and before I go on I know that there’s hourly basis there’s weekly and you know I have other slides so bear with me for a minute this is an illustration and if you want to go into all your Tyne domains we can later but not now so took it on a monthly basis averaged it and scaled up the wind so the area in the curve was the same as the load I just done a monkey bases so you’re basically saying if you were gonna run a hundred percent wind the the amount of wind turbines installed in this diagram here would produce the same amount of energy required the problem is it’s too much in the winter and tooling this summer we have an enormous wind in the winter not so much in the summer I’m sure we don’t use as much electricity in

the winter the summer but you know we we almost use the same so in fact the problem is the excess is in the winter and the shortage is in the summer now if you tell me for one minute you’re going to charge up your car over winter and drive it all summer like Elon Musk is an ambitious man but he’s never gonna be able to do that apparently he’s gonna live on a Mars sometime so it’s not about demand side manager lecturer vehicles right if you take the Irish power system we have one pump storage station in the system we might be able to build a second why have a geographical you know we might have some you know some of the location we could build another one or two maybe the area of this curve is five thousand of them there are billion euros apartment so you’re not going to do that now you can definitely over build it I accept that but what I’m saying is that maybe we should sort of shape ourselves so in fact the low profile looks a bit more like the wind profile yeah in other words shape the load to suit the resource we we came about it naturally yeah we didn’t design it air cut you know ended up with a the wrong correlation and why air conditioning during this summer so they have a summer peeking yeah system and also the room so their wind profile and they’re under and they’re low profile are just anti-correlated but I’m sort of saying that you could you know you could design your load long term in a way that it’s got more correlation that’s the basic point and maybe you should design manufacturing processes you know you know during the winter you’ll have lots of free energy maybe you should have manufacturing process that can take advantage of etcetera so my own belief it’s not about demand-side management it’s about built-in demand side managing the long term and before anyone says out to me says what about using solar in the equation too because it’s pretty obvious here that what’s happening in Ireland is that yeah surely if we were to put in solar in the summer do UK and Ireland about the same it does so the Sun will shine a little bit in the summer not all off but it does so you definitely could address this issue on a monthly basis by putting in solar PV because you’ll have more Sun Sun in the summer so I don’t have the data for Ireland in any usable form so I googled it earlier and Great Falls Montana it’s a place I know well I’ve spent I’ve several several weeks there and and I’ve got the sore eye academically I don’t know if this is correct but it’ll do the job premise wind power calm donor who they are but it’ll do fine simple fact of marriage you can see that the wind and solar aunty Carl is so if you put them together you can address this problem as well so combination of resources way to do let’s go to Denmark Denmark is a leader in the world you know in integration of wind it’s at 42% remind you how it does it so if you go to energynet DK’s website you can go just go right go power right now and you’ll find it at URL is down here this shows you February 2nd 2016 and you can see that in Denmark that’s a bit here what’s happening here is Denmark is producing 3.9 gigawatts of wind it is consuming 3.4 or 3.5 it’s got an excess but in fact what it’s doing is it’s shifting 2 gigawatts to somewhere else it’s exporting so Denmark is not integrating its wind Denmark is exporting its wind fast forward to today they went on I was just went on today was a nice no more I said a look and all of a sudden they’re importing 2.2 today but interesting if you look at the local CHP plants yeah now you got to remember it’s it’s time of year etc if you go back to here 298 was the local CHP plants right so they were producing a bit of electricity right 531 there and the reason it’s higher there is because they’re exporting but if you go actually a couple of weeks ago 700 for basically the CHP plants in Denmark are flexible they’re not tied they have more control so they have heat storage etc so it’s part of the picture so Denmark essentially if you look at it hourly wind farm output exports you can see this correlation basically Denmark integrates as renewables by important export and also but their CHP plant are also flexible I’ll skip that one flexibility is something that people have talked about some people try to measure it we’ve done some work so the only reason I bring this I’m not gonna go to this in any detail we did some work in quantifying flexibility there it is there but then we said well what happens off of transmission in there you know how does transmission impact the whole thing so the reason I use this slide is that there’s some real detailed stuff there you want to read it but it’s Udrih introduced the concept of transmission okay so the advertisement for this classic energy now is always represented by these things or a wind

turbine everyone use them so I thought I’d use it so here’s a transmission right this is the most flexible thing on a power system by far it’s transmission by far it is their most so I said before the Irish power system is more flexible inherently but not inherently but because the correlation do you win a load and Erika doesn’t have it and I’ve talked about gas in our system you know demand-side management but actually if you do the numbers on it and you do them numbers anywhere and you do them any way you want almost certainly transmission is the best bang for your buck in terms of Doc’s ability the reason is is here’s some data from this is Andrew Mills from Lawrence Berkeley labs and he looked us and again it makes the point about solar you know solar yes it’s it’s variable and unpredictable but it’s got a more of a regularity than winds okay but he’s shown you know one site five sites 20 sites whatever transmission adds them all together so it sort of smoothes it out if you look at wind you get the same thing so by putting in transmission you actually even out this this need for flexibility and also you enable it so in other words two things happens you put in transmission it means you reduce the need for it because you’re sort of smoothing is that but you also get access to places where you know you can bring in some electricity so it’s it cuts both ways I got a slide deck about two hours ago from a colleague of mine and vtt who’s giving a talk in Dublin tomorrow on this issue and I asked her could I use this slide so this is you had QB Loomis is the author of this so he did a study it’s not published yet but I asked him for a reference he doesn’t have it but he looked at all comparing Forex very options okay no don’t shoot because I’m just told it’s very nice slide I was reviewing the slides about two hours ago and I said send an email says would you mind if I use this light I said fine so if there’s any hard questions I’ll have to refer you to someone else but you need a cost-benefit analysis of all these forms of flexibility and transmission is the best cost/benefit analysis party heat is good I just went through that you know you know I dumped the electricity into heat so power to heat is good the main response without costs I think what he means by that is that you know if demand response comes free which you know just some extent you can say it’s marginal cost zero I think the battery hundred the battery 50 is batteries at the moment at the current cost and maybe half the price I you know again ferry to someone else but battery doesn’t give a good cost-benefit analysis but it’s better for PV and wind again for the same reason I said Solar is more regular so from a storage point of view from an investment point of view if this thing that happens called excess happens in a more regular basis for the same amount of pre flexibility retirement you’re going to be able to handle it more because it’s the volumes that are same over the whole year but if it happens more regularly then you have a better chance of from investment point of view dealing with so I taught to be very nice I ask very easily said so not only does my diagram show it because I I think this diagram is the only thing we need is to have any more flexible thing I don’t see anyone having a battery do this but the data does stack open any numbers you see anywhere those comes up this so then enter this I don’t know if you know this gentleman here is this Charlie Smith he looks like a certain gentleman called Abraham Lincoln but he’s a real dis a real person his name is Charlie Smith and his name is actually James Smith but he goes by Charlie Smith but he’s got the most common name in the United States therefore he’s on the terrorist watch list because they didn’t believe him it’s actually true and so Charlie Smith coined the phrase if you love wind and solar you have to at least like transmission for the reasons I’ve given so you might like wind and solar but in order to integrate them transmission is the cheapest way of doing but then enters the consumer yeah and you know as all good electrical engineers consumers should not be consulted whatsoever but nonetheless they are very important this is actually a protest I put this one this is a protest against the transmission line going to a coal plant so they’re trying to stop the transmission go into a coal plant but nonetheless I think the point is clear pylons out clean energy now this is against coal and this is stop wind whatever okay it’s a very interesting paper by Suffolk low nature engineers McConnell’s ignoring people and Miss Carson decision making action I’m glad he put in the economists it wasn’t leave us engineers by ourselves and engineers are probably the least empathetic people in the world except for probably economists but I think engineers and columnist annually come from the same block of wood when it comes to this sort of thing you know so you have to consider the consumer and and that’s why I said earlier on what

this optimization mean you know like I say I have a wife and two daughters and a son I understand my son completely he’s starting his PhD in he ETH in Switzerland that’s footsteps my wife and two daughters I have no idea at all yeah but I love them but I can’t understand so consumers are very difficult things to understand extremely difficult okay so people say there’s a trilemma you know they talk about security you know security supply or sorry economy security supply or sorry but Harry there he is there mr. Putin you know security supply sustainability and economic there’s a tree that they call it a trilemma but I believe it’s a trilemma plus the consumer you know the consumer is actually part of this need to be considered human beings do strange things and therefore in any integrated energy system you have to take them into account in fact my own belief is that they’re a single biggest missing element of what we do you know some physics we’re gonna send economics you know we’re not accounting for the consumer engineers and economists are coming up with solutions that they think are right sue so I’ll be very quick Europe I mentioned in China that the sort of you know that these problems are not just sort of physical they’re sort of regular issues as well but this is this is a I’ve used several times in several slides but I think it’s work you know this is something appeared in Bloomberg it’s 2012 it’s quite old you know it says windmills overload East Europeans grid risking blackout this is a report from the Commission on so many issues related to it but this is a slide and I I asked Ronnie once self he won’t mind me using it again so Ronnie belmonts the Belgian colleague of ours did a very nice illustration of this and you’ve got Spain Portugal France Belgium Netherlands Deutschland yeah Switzerland Italy not sure Austria Poland and this is Slovenia I think bunny this shows you unannounced whimper so this is scheduled power exchanges and this is what they taught the day before was going to happen they taught that you know two point one six nine gigawatts of electricity was going to go from from Germany to Netherlands etc right but because of forecasting errors this is what actually happened they’re totally different and the problem is is if you’re trying to run a power system and this happens it’s a reliability issue I’m not saying you can’t handle it I’m saying you know it’s better to know what’s gonna happen in advance to handle it and one of the reasons I won’t go – there are several reasons for it but essentially there are policy mistakes yeah they’re just you know classic policy mistakes so this is a good report from mark Oliver dieter Helmut cetera but anything you know how did they get it so wrong you know so they you know the crisis the European electricity service an awful lot of policy mistakes and again I’m not saying they’re all because it is because it didn’t take into account the whole system view this problem is a whole system view problem which is Germany just says I’ll put when the system would be fine they didn’t take into account that in fact are there wind and their forecast errors will cause reliability problems for everyone else’s power system so they do not take the whole than view the reason they don’t take it has to do with politics and to deal with the fact that the Germans do not like certain policy instruments because they are not acceptable politically why would you curtail wind and solar e in Germany when you’ve subsidized it so much and tell the consumer you’re paying a fortune for it by the way I’m pretending it every now and again it’s not politically acceptable so it’s politics is – okay a global perspective so I’ll just finish up on this so um if you just back to energy system integration so this is the energy system integration facility at the National Renewable Energy Lab in the US it’s a hundred and thirty five thousand square foot building it’s called the ISA fence it’s built around this concept of whole energy systems about integrating electricity gas heat together across all scales it was opened around two or three years ago this is the energy systems catapult which just started in the UK the last six months when official launch I think next week in London I was invited I won’t be here have in Paris and this is a district energy technology plan for Europe this is a sort of it’s been around for about six or seven years but this is a sort of that I don’t know an update version of it if you want it came out I think about 18 months ago if you look at this document here the whole concept of the integrated energy system is almost dominant in the document there’s two things down within the document right the consumer and the integrated energy system there are two themes that if you read the document that well sorry from my point of view maybe I’m wrong but if you read it there are two major themes it’s one system it’s got all these

different parts we have to make it work together and the consumer should be at the center of it this is a purpose-built facility first and the UK is investing heavily in things like this so in fact globally you can see this whole concept of energy systems is it’s becoming bigger bigger this is the organization that Tim spoke about earlier our selves Imperial NREL K Leuven PN and L DTU and every and some others have all come together to form this organization called the International Institute for energy system integration it’s there to try and let’s say promotes the wrong word but from a scientific point of view we believe this is a really important area and it’s not just you know it’s not just engineering now mind you all the people who start their engineers which is probably the Brawn place to start but that’s where we started and it’s definitely about the consumer economics regulation etc and within Europe they have under the set plan they have the European Energy Research Alliance and inside European energy Research Alliance they’ve joined programmes this is an attempt by Europe to coordinate energy research in Europe to deliver on the set plan so what they’ve got is I’ve got these joint programs and the idea is that most of the energy reach most of the research money in in Europe does not come through Europe it comes true national governments in the u.s. is different most of research money in the u.s. comes through federal government and little comes through the States Europe’s the complete opposite therefore if you’re trying to achieve this set plan for Europe or whatever then you know the Commission only has so much money most of the money lies within the nation states and therefore era is a concept that will set this up and try and get it to coordinate energy research across Europe that’s the concept so they have 16 or 17 of these joint programs one in wind solar geothermal CCS cetera cetera cetera so at December 2015 they approved a joint programme energy systems integration because the importance of this area and its launch will be in May 8 to 9 to double in 2016 so energy systems integration increasing important research area it’s fundamental to success with the carbonization and particularly integration of large volumes renewables and it’s a large introducer it’s an enormous area yeah and it’s definitely into this area and I do not believe there’s any one University Institute can solver because it’s such a complex problem that it’s definitely something that is you know very well suited international collaboration thank you so mark indicated be happy to take questions no one took up in the offer during the tour I’m sure we’ll have some questions from the audience now if you could just wait for the microphone to reach you and if you could just allows your name and affiliation before you ask helpful thank you very much for your lecture wondering what you think of tidal power and the possibility of a fleet of lagoons in the UK and what that does for the integration challenge recognizing that shirts are sort of spiky but regular okay I’ve been working that I’ve done some calculations at capacity value published it I know six seven or eight years ago tiny power is a niche resource in a global context I’m you know it’s extremely large in some places but from a global perspective if you look at the IPCC report on renewables in 2011 the the amount of viable tidal energy that’s there is quite small so it’s a niche first of all and it’s still variable and it’s very predictable I mean it’s a fine technology it’s it’s reasonably closed you know it’s pretty this way it’s an awful lot closer economically than wave power in fact it’s infinitely because in the wave power doesn’t seem to work at all so I think it’s a good technology it’s predictable it is easier to integrate from some perspectives but it’s a very small and niche technology it’s not a satisfactory answer I couldn’t possibly speak but UK being appropriate my understanding is that the UK definitely has some resource probably the Severn is it yes yeah yeah and I think there’s some there’s some one aren’t as well but it’s not it’s not a it’s all got to do with there it’s all got to do with the moon and the you know the various bits and pieces and some places there’s a large amount of but I don’t think I know the numbers that we did for Ireland indicate that we might have 200 megawatt stuff now I have your same we need around 10 gigawatts of it so it’s a very small resource in our case it might be 2 or 3% I’d suspect the UK might be about the same it’s not a very large resource but as you know but the technology for title is it’s nearer and here it’s technology as what I understood where’s wave still faces and almost challenges

on at least on reliability here right where we going for our next question hi Clara Imperial student PhD student here at Imperial College I’d like to ask you again about the system and nourisher thing so it is becoming a big topic and I think in the UK also National Grid always published this system operability framework and it’s becoming more more important and there as well just I’m just like curious about your activities about different systems across the world in what kind of systems is this really becoming a limiting limiting factor system inertia so there are some islands in Greece who have had these limits for years they have fastened as well they didn’t call them snsp but I think I’ve I’ve got a paper that date back to 1993 I think where they had a power system dynamics limit which is essentially the same thing of 40% on some small island in Greece and it is in air caught in Texas because Texas is classic Tex and they might be part of the continent you know you know North America but they are not synchronized to the rest of us so it’s starting to happen there because they have an enormous meant to wind hydro Quebec is starting to think about it because it’s also it’s isolated sync resistance that are that they are small and they were large Metron evils but the the leaders in the field in this area today it’s Ireland it’s their Greek islands Texas I would suspect news it well Museum there’s an awful lot of hydras and also New Zealand might also I don’t see whether you case are worried about it’s still a very large system relative relatively speaking so but look as you put more and more to stuff on it will happen how do we go in fact the u.s. yeah the US did a study on it continental united states the eastern interconnection which is the largest interconnection in the world and they did a study on it and i was part of the study team so all I’ll tell you is that the start is to the assist there’s no point in studying this it’s not a problem for another you know they still did a study though and they found a problem so it’s got to do with very small systems with very large amounts announcing this generation so do you could do you imagine that potentially the electricity system would change such that maybe inertia doesn’t become that big of a problem anymore is that an idea as well yeah there’s a so there’s a project called migrate which is a European Commission project that we’re involved with us is looking at very high penetrations of power electronic device in the system and one of the work factors in it is looking at 100 percent in other words no synchronous generation at all so my belief is that that’s where we’re going we’re going to completely non-singular systems however the analogy I’ll give you is that it’s like changing the engines of a Boeing 747 is across the Atlantic because you know on power systems sometimes you know when the wind isn’t blowing it will all be synchronous generation and then a few hours later it’s all wind so you have a system that swing switching between a synchro’s and on single system so it’s a really interesting challenge it’s a very interesting engineering question and it’s because the system’s not has to be backward compatible we can’t just switch out the entire system and switch in a new one so that’s a very good question that it’s a very interesting area completely power electronic systems is probably where is it’s definitely one of the areas we’re going towards he likes this is his area but it is it is it is where we’re going and there’s people in the US working on it as people in Europe working on now it’s a good it’s a very for PhD students interested in this area it’s incredibly interesting research question how do you operate systems that are synchronous on times non-synchronous other times and maintain reliability it’s a really interesting question and on the left-hand side Tim run away from the Association for decentralized energy thank you very much your lecture is very interesting there was a very bland sort of technical detail question I’m really interested to know what they were storing me the heat as in China because it didn’t look like the big hot water thermal stores that you see in Denmark I just wondered yeah I could send tranching an email I’ll send it to me now if you want I have no idea because if you see if you see hold on I use slides I put down a source you know if I can always defer to them just that you mean we gave a talk at the edge of the apparently decided meeting a couple years ago and he was talking about these enormous storage devices but I was not sure what he I’m not sure just yeah the photograph just didn’t look like yeah the gas emitter tight thermal sort anything maybe they’re not the right things I don’t know but that the point is is historic scale yeah basically that’s the basic point I mean it is much more efficient to store at scale than it is to store at small scale um and the other question displays power electronics thing and I’m not an electrical engineer but you suggested

that this problem of the loss of rotating or well it’s not even loss of retained mass was the connection with repair electronics you seem to apply that was it an issue for all electrical generation going forward does that mean that future if we had nuclear or whatever future thermal assets which at the minute a rotating mass contributing to system stability with that do you envisage that going okay so it is sort of related to the question I was just asked but let me say one thing first wait am i forgot wasn’t I say yeah just just on one point wind turbines do have a rotating mass it’s the blade and whatever so they do have this kinetic energy there the problem is the power electronics doesn’t allow it to be connected system solar PV does not house so solar and wind are different in that respect so there are technologies out there from GE and others who have what they call pseudo inertia response in other words the power electronics connect to the system but in the event that it’s a frequency event of the system it actually deliberately slows down the wind turbine therefore sucking the kinetic energy of the wind turbine so it’s using in an intelligent manner now I’m not gonna go any further than that it’s not there are issues around it but it is it takes Oh wind Kanpur can produce pseudo inertial response solar can do nothing unless you put storied into it on your other question it’s back to the question you asked I mean it’s not a case I don’t think it’s a case that we’re going to 100% power electronics and it’s not a case that nuclear is gonna go power electronics it’s just the case that we’re in this transition if you go 100 years forward and you say you want to completely renewable it’s almost certain that it will be largely power electronics but I think there will always be some synchronous generation this system because I think that biomass for example so you’re gonna go to a synchronous generator and synchronous systems have some advantages but it’s a matter it’s an incredibly interesting research question and if you want a career in it I’m 53 tim is a little bit if I was a young academic at 25 or 26 I would think that this is this whole question it just asses you know it’s good for 30 or 40 years it’s a it’s a really interesting question because the power system we’ve developed is a sink respire system it’s AC it works absolutely fine we can’t just throw it out we have to it has to keep working 24/7 365 days a year you can to unplug it you have to turn it so like I said it the analogy is the Boeing 747 or that’s a the u.s. make the call and Airbus Airbus 380 flight from Heathrow to Dallas there’s a fighter they go east you know it’s like changing the engines on that in flight you touch the analogy because you’re going from the system is you know mainly synchronous I operate a one-way system has become a in the asynchronous operate another way how do you do that and maintain reliability it’s a really interesting question this is slope oh yes please go ahead yeah good evening I’m a student at France Business School surah Gupta I’d like to know what is a view on ITER that’s the International thermonuclear experimental reactor being made in France the fusion yes so this is a completely personal opinion not professional in any way I think it’s a complete waste of money well I just I just think it’s always been you know and I don’t know I know very little about it so I can’t we say but just so not a not a scientific answer because I just don’t know but it’s always 50 years away always you know like chasing a bus yeah and we’ve poured enormous amounts of money into it looks just there you know 35 that I can say no in which case it doesn’t put us on a pathway to the no place for 2050 I’m sorry from a long-term research perspective does that mean things they do that are valuable etcetera but not saying you to stop it but I I suspect we probably put too much money into it but it’s not gonna have any impact by yeah put it this way I’ll be long gone before it has an impact and in fact unless it’s someone in here whose – age well seniors we’re throwing several different technologies at you mark but you left yourself open by talking about energy systems integration so a debate that’s that’s moved backwards and forwards in the UK is about the future building heating between what we thought a few years ago

that we would Electrify building heating and supply through a decarbonize electricity system we thought we might be using ground source heat pumps and the rest we’ve toyed with the idea we might be doing it through heat networks we seem to be swinging back that it might be we retain our gas network we just put something lower carbon in it likes in gas or biogas I imagine the same sort of debate is happening in Ireland but I don’t know where it starts I think I’m in the UK it’s probably scimitar and we have too many well it’s definitely an army afar to our building stuff it’s far too diffuse we don’t have too many apartments now you London is a much more densely populated city so it probably lends itself a little bit more to it so we’re not suitable for centralized CHP which is not suitable for if you do the numbers on us I just don’t know where it’s nice to be honest which I really don’t I think hybrid heating systems will make it there are systems out there they can burn gas electron you know they sort of do hype now they’re expensive but a hybrid heating system on a system like this can sort of say well Wendy electricity is dirt cheap I’ll use that and sometimes I use so a hybrid heating system might be way to do it but they’re very expensive so I would say some sort of and it’s probably a hybrid as well and on a national basis as well but it’s a very difficult on electricity because it’s easy that’s uncommon for electrical units it’s not that easy but he is a real problem and we’ve sort of you know the low-hanging fruit is in electricity and the reason it’s an electricity is because you want to integrate an enormous mess renewables it turns out electricity is ralphie straightforward to do it yeah wind turbine power electronics electricity doers yeah he’s much more difficult in fact as a proposal back in Ireland to use biomass in our in our coal burning station right using biomass in a coal burning station is insane it’s up by the UK is doing it okay sorry but it isn’t it is insane you better off burning the biome I have two solid fuel stoves in my house they’re both daint ones Danish one is Swedish or Norwegian very expensive very nice very tasty but incredibly efficient you know the efficiencies are 90% why would you burn biomass in a power station when you can burn it in your house so I think there’s you know and I think if you look at it if you go to Germany you take the German situation the German situation is that you would think the Germans very friendly people yeah but they’ve killed off their heat pump market why because they have enormous subsidy all the subsidies for renewables are paid by the consumer and they also subsidize industry because they don’t want the industry exposed to the prices that are more competitive and their net effect of one policy of the Germans to promote renewables which is get to collect risky consumer to pay for their own subsidies and to pay the part of industry is that heat pumps even if they were cheap don’t make any sense because electricity is so expensive so this is a classic case of market signals game – you know completely wrong I think the future is probably going to be a combination of these technologies wouldn’t be my area of expertise so time is running away from us a little so I’m going to take a group of questions so we have to over this side if you would nice and Judith first and then to my topic I’ll do my best I want to talk about politics I’ll go there I’m Judith Ward from sustainability first and I wonder if I can just link up or come back to some of the points you were making about shaping load profiles to match wind and also where the consumer sits and all of this because as I understand it in Ireland with your smart meter illa and there’s also going to be already is perhaps a sort of mandated time of use tariffs and I was just wondering where that sits say in your view about trying to shape low profiles to match wind and also um you know whether that is actually going to help with end bills as well so I’m not completely familiar with where our smart meter rollout is but we’ve done a demonstration project and we’ve done analysis on it but the smart meters themselves have not been rolled out of scale at all I’m not too sure where the debate is I know one of the debates is around this is around they want everyone to have a do they’re going to give everyone a smart meter plus at a fancy box and like my view is what are you giving them a fancy box for they have one of these so that’s my only contribution to this is that you know that I think that it’s very I think smartly I think smart meters well my honest opinion I think smart meters will not have an impact as people think I don’t think that evidence is there to say they will I think the consumer will have a huge impact but I mean smart meters rolled out to everyone is like it’s a classic engineering economics solution here you all have one why you all want one

do they who here wants a smart meter it’s definitely off my area but my understanding of shale gas is that the resource in the United States is clearly better at a macro scale Europe’s resource is probably far less and there are some environmental issues developed but I you know I was in Cornell University for 11 weeks one time and in Cornell University the two leading experts on either side of the equation are there I’ve heard both sides but I know common US shale gas is much more predominant than it is in Europe okay right I’m going to just take two questions so the one from the front and then we’ll go to the back on the left-hand side as well maybe you can hear both questions in the interest of time and then and then we’ll pick up the answers it’s Rufus Ford from SSA it’s just a real quick one and going back a couple of questions too talking about the heating technologies and your earlier comment about large thermal storage being a cheap way of storing energy don’t you require heat networks really to do the really big scale heat storage so as you go up there yeah I mean if you have 20,000 people living within one square kilometer it’s a very small heat Network I mean that you know in China they live in enormous you know very high rise buildings very densely populated so it’s a small heat now I think in the UK in our in a place like that that number of people would not live in that sort of confined space and therefore the network gets bigger so I think it’s horses for courses in different places hi I’m Rachel Stanley and I was wondering so you following what you’re saying about smart meters one of the things that I was seeing about smart meters is they will eventually enable demand-side management as they will enable utilities to have a much all the suppliers to be able to actually understand the demand and to be able to see where demand is actually communicate to customers about that which is kind of one of the first stages towards getting them involved is how do you see demand side management within this kind of integrated system do you think it has a place so first of all why do you need a smart meter to enable them outside management the major benefit of smart meters that I know of is that the utility can read your meter without go into your house that is that apparently is the single biggest benefit I can push I can get it I can do it in the lab in fact I’m sure if we went down to electro engineering department here we could have we could get a soldering iron a few bits and pieces and I could start measuring electricity consumption and broadcast of this ball I do not need a smart meter to enable the man side management they’re just not needed but then so sure yeah well my own belief was so there was a report out if you google it go ee or e it’s the energy efficiency burner ee or e deal.we it’s a demand-side management report to just come out around in start of March it was it was a huge report turn on a study on the western interconnection United States about June demand-side management at scale and I was a part of the study team so they looked at demand-side manager in western indicates United States which is around about two or three hundred gigawatts sits around about half the size of continental European system it’s a big system and they did a ground-up study in terms of all the demand side management was available they aggregate a’dope I’m not saying it was the best it’s the best comprehensive study I’ve ever seen in terms of demand side management I want to shows you is in terms of what demand side management can do now what I mean by that is existing demand my view is that we should design demand in the future so that’s more compatible so what a caveat that I think demand side management the future will be very big but I think the existing demand will it’s constraints it turns out that in terms of what it can do for you right in terms of some of the services it can provide there’s an enormous amount of yeah but in terms of the services that are incredibly valuable that we want for renewables there’s not a lot of us and

in other words it came out as not exactly the most useful thing to have its marginal but in the future if we design the systems it’ll become much more valuable particularly as more renewables go into the system so it’s that we are show the electric car things like that I don’t think the months I manage it is because people think with the current existing loads and the way we’re thinking about it I think in the future it could be well thank you for your questions I think we’ve had a very healthy debate we also had a very interesting lecture and I like to thank Mark for buzzes well you you a game because you’re engaged with the questions and that was well in which case it’s time to get to the pub to continue that aspect of play so let’s thank mark in in the usual you