A Conversation with Kevin Cullen and Shelley Murphy

Just another WordPress site

A Conversation with Kevin Cullen and Shelley Murphy

good evening I’m Tom Putnam director of the John F Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum and on behalf of Tomic knot executive director of the Kennedy Library Foundation and all of my library and foundation colleagues I thank you all for coming and acknowledge the generous underwriters of the Kennedy Library forums lead sponsor Bank of America Raytheon Boston Capital the Lowell Institute the Boston foundation and our media partners the Boston Globe and WV you are first congratulations are in order Kevin Cullen was recently awarded the American Society of news editors prestigious Battin medal for for his inspiring storytelling and commitment to ordinary people having won the award in 2008 he’s the only person to ever have ever won it twice and we also congratulate Kevin and his co-author Shelley Murphy for their groundbreaking and fascinating new book Whitey Bulger America’s most wanted gangster and the manhunt that brought him to justice Kevin and Shelly are both award-winning journalists earning respectively a Pulitzer Prize in the George Polk award they’re both known for their deep roots and the city neighborhoods of Savin Hill and Southie where they were born their tireless pursuit and unflinching pursuit of the truth and their clear gripping writing and of course for their fierce Boston accents the latter being most appropriate in a building which honors a man who brought the city’s native dialect to a world stage my favorite example is the speech in which JFK invoked the great Cuban revolutionary Jose Marti by stating and as Maddy said our moderator this evening is David Bowie one of the very few who can match Kevin and Shelly’s investigative reporting on the FBI and Whitey Bulger David is currently a senior reporter for WBUR and who could ever forget his recent gripping radio report on the coerced murder confession of a 16 year old girl from Worcester I had to stop driving my car as I listened to it this new account of Whitey Bulger is in part a social history of Boston and touches at times and the role the Kennedy family has played in the life and politics of this city as a crime story it also affirms the importance of an active and well financed local news organization an impartial judicial court system we’re often honored to host naturalization ceremonies in this Hall where immigrants are sworn in as new citizens by federal judges including two who play a role in this saga the first is judge mark Wolfe whose courageous rulings reveal the extent of whitey Bulger’s corrupt corrupt relationship with the FBI and the second is one of the newest judges on the federal bench at her first naturalization ceremony here a few months ago she requested on a subsequent visit if she could have a guided tour of our museum we provided one to her last month as she reimbursed herself into the history of the Kennedy presidency the struggle for civil rights and JFK’s call for each of us to serve our country her name is Denise Casper she’s the first African American woman to sit on the federal bench in Massachusetts and she was recently named to oversee the trial of Whitey Bulger Kevin wrote a column about that selection last week and I’ll allow him to add his own editorial comments about that later in the conversation let’s get right to it please join me now in welcoming Shelley Murphy Kevin Colin and David Bowie to the Kennedy Library I just want to point out this is the only time you’ll find me to the right of WB you are welcome everybody not only to the Kennedy Library but to the longest-running saga in our lifetimes and really one of the longest-running sagas in the modern era I call this the case that never the case that never ends the crime that never stops from the beginning of the New Deal to the end of the new frontier was a tale of 30 years this story is a tale of 37 years if you simply consider whitey Bulger’s involvement in government work if not in public service you know this

is a saga all right and just like the sagas of old we even have Icelandic names in this one like the Anna Jones daughter but it’s much more than a it’s much more than a crime story and it’s a story about much more than one man which which which really makes it a story and there couldn’t be a more appropriate place to tell the story tonight this saga that at the Kennedy Library because in fact although it won’t be noted this is the 50th anniversary of the war on organized crime and the war on organized crime was launched for several reasons that had to do both with the zeal of Bobby Kennedy who was the Attorney General at the time and of the animosity between the Kennedy brothers and John J Edgar Hoover Hoover had always denied the existence of organized crime and de Hoover if he didn’t know something about something than it didn’t exist and he was embarrassed in the late 1950s by the fact that there was organized crime and it was Bobby Kennedy who compounded his embarrassment so when Bobby Kennedy became Attorney General suddenly the war began with a zeal against the enemy within as Bobby Kennedy had titled his book on organized crime in 1960 in the main office of the FBI there were 400 people in New York City looking for communists and 10 looking at organized crime that all changed with Bobby Kennedy and it was no surprise therefore than the war that the war was launched here in Boston because this was going to be the showcase and this was the first place where the FBI declared mission accomplished but when you have zeal to fight enemies often that leads to ruthlessness and ruthlessness can lead to the bending of laws and cutting corners and so the irony here as we come to talk really about the end of the war on crime is that you have bookends and one side the early bookends involved the first star in the war on organized crime and a legendary FBI agent Paul Rico who would die in jail decades later awaiting trial on charges of helping Whitey Bulger murder people and the first starring witness for the government to the war on organized crime was a guy named Joe Barbosa who was protected by the government and turned out to be a notorious liar and a murderous witness and on this side this bookend the other end you have the second star in the war on organized crime FBI agent John Connolly convicted of helping Whitey Bulger murder someone and of course there is the other star starring witness for the government Whitey Bulger himself who has become the emblem of a war on crime that turned dirty and so you have bookends we start tonight with the figure of Bulger who is really the emblem of so much that went wrong here in Boston on the eve of his trial for 19 murders so the tale begins the saga starts and I am thrilled and honored and privileged to be on the stage tonight with Shelley and Kevin I’m sorry struck you know the way you set that up was perfect because I’m so struck by you know when you look back how much animosity the FBI had for Malcolm X and yet when it came to going after the Mafia under J Edgar Hoover and people like Rico they adopted Malcolm X’s great ethos which is by any means necessary and Paul Rico did exactly what he thought Hoover want him to do and that was play God and we have a section in the book in which the FBI decides when there’s the the Irish gang war is

blazing in the early 60s the FBI decides who was going to win and the FBI in the person of Paul Rico gets people killed he decides who would die he decides who will win and it was so Machiavellian that Paul Rico decided that Stevie Flemmi one of his informants who will later become the partner of crime with whitey was so valuable to them that he gets him to switch sides Steve Flemmi is taken from one gang and more or less moved over to the Winter Hill Gang because the FBI had had decided the Winter Hill Gang will win and they will decide what and the other thing about the corruption that began and that’s the this book to me is it’s many stories but it’s a story of institutional corruption and the FBI decided at that point that they could pick who would win and they would also have no problem with being complicit in murders so what John Connolly did in the 70s with Whitey Bulger was a template that existed in the 60s and obviously Bobby Kennedy didn’t sign up for this but he inadvertently unleashed a monster which was the FBI under J Edgar Hoover and a guy like like Rico and then you can’t make this stuff up Paul Rico arrested Whitey Bulger in 1956 why they call it a saga in a nightclub in Revere where an informant would told him he was waiting so can’t make this stuff up but we did Shelley we so if the curtains were open we could see the old town take take us back if you would to the old town or up to Old Colony Avenue in the 1950s really which becomes it’s it’s the decade in which whitey becomes a full-time criminal but take us back to the to the town that existed then a fundamentally different place than it is now profoundly and before of course the troubles of the 1970s but I wonder if you could just kind of paint the picture of what selfie was like well I mean loyalty you know neighborhood people hanging out on their Stoops I mean a place where everybody knew everybody and you know whitey describes his childhood in very different terms than Billy describes it I mean Billy Bulger talks it about South Boston and very nostalgic terms about kids playing tag out in the courtyard or you know you know games at the park or down at the beach and whitey talks about being poor and wanting war and being sort of angry you know and he describes it in terms of you know stealing and being sort of wild and getting caught stealing and being threatened by a police officer who put a gun in his mouth so his view of the name but it does come back to sort of a neighbor taking care of neighbor one thing Kevin and I talked about for the book is that in in South Boston you know why he very carefully cultivated reputation early that he was one of the first people in the neighborhood to have a car and he got that guy from stealing but but that what he did with that car is he would he would drive her on and if he saw some of the elderly women you know carrying lugging their groceries like mrs. Moakley he would stop and pick them up and cultivated this reputation that in the neighborhood they weren’t talking about oh that Jimmy is driving a stolen car they were saying put a nice young me and he stopped at a bball is such a nice it’s interesting because because I’ve talked to people who say that Jean his older sister was the best-dressed girl in school and it was because he was in the back of trucks exactly pulling goods off but Kevin tell me it was it was much more tribal yeah it’s much more tribal not that there weren’t other ethnic groups but it was certainly tribal church was like stronger big-time view of government these were new dealers solid new dealers what you call it blue-collar people Union people and the other thing about Southie I always say that it’s figure it’s literally a peninsula it’s figuratively an island it thinks of itself as separate and if you look at the if you look at the geography of Southie if you’re not from there there’s no reason to go through there and that was fine by people from something they didn’t mean because if you look at it I mean it’s its waterfront it’s it’s it is a beautiful

place it really is and it has a lot of great history but I think it’s interesting when I looked at when we were doing the research for the book before we really started writing it I was surprised I thought it was more Irish there are a lot of lithuanian z’ a lot of poles a lot a lot of Eastern Europeans Latvians and obviously there was an Italian population there but it was I’ll never forget when Bruce bowling became the first african-american president of the City Council the first thing he did was punish arrival so they had a reception for him up at the Parkman house and I sidled up to him and I put my arm around him I said Bruce a brother finally gets the job and what do you do you act like an Irish Paul and he put his arm around me he said Kevin in this town we’re all Irish by osmosis and Southie was like that the ethos was Irish so you could be an Armenian but you had to sing Irish songs in the public schools you know and and the other thing that that I think is running through the theme of this book is that it’s an Irish story and there is obviously nothing worse in the Irish consciousness given the history of the Irish and its relationship with the colonized that that was Britain informers were the bane of Irish history every time the Irish were about to break away or trying to break away and inform brought them down and that’s the great irony in this story that whitey became an informer who says he’s not an informant says he’s a strategist or a consultant or whatever that only says but that that turned it on its head Jimmy Bulger was great at many things he was particularly great at sophistry I want to go back before we go too far ahead there’s something else that strikes me about the 50s and going through all this and the records it was a time when families and selphie and elsewhere big families could produce priests cops jailers criminals and nuts not unusual in those communities and and during the day people go off to work and there would be one literally one guy going off to the jail maybe over Charlestown or the precinct house and another guy would be going out to boost goods or look at Billy and whitey I mean they came is it invited that debate is an environment or they came from the same household and as Shelley said Billy’s view of his childhood was like Dilek nobody got divorced in the projects nobody fought in the prize it’s and whitey saw a completely different and I think why do you one of the things that we were striking that when he was tested in prison he had naik you of 118 which is about what a college graduate they said would would have and this is a guy that didn’t get through ninth grade and so they clearly had the same innate abilities they came from the same household they had the same parents but you know whereas you know it was obvious from what we found is that why he had a very different relationship with his parents that his mother was a sunny person I always saw the bright side of life that the cup was always half-full and the father was sort of a who had lost his arm as a as he as a teenager and you know was kind of a morose figure married married her late after having an earlier marriage the big gap between the parents and the father was so frustrated with whitey and white he talks about in his prison records of being beaten by him very regularly and you know that’s not going to fall just memoir so not an unusual thing family has a troubled kid kid is what 20 was he 24 when he becomes when he jumps Shelley from hanging on the backs of trucks and stealing goods to armed robbery yeah it was 1955 when he was actually caught but yeah I mean we thought it was hanging a lot not a drinker he was someone who always took care of his health but was hanging out at the bars and meeting people who you know other criminals and graduated to bank robbery in not just I mean it was a series of bank robberies around the countries he was sort of expanding his horizons and it’s very interesting you write about it the book he gets arrested no surprise he seemed to be surprised that he was arrested I always found it fascinating where he had gone on the road and the fact that far long before us Teresa Stanley and and Catherine Greig there was another that looked much like them who was on the road with him and went to the same places yes San

Francisco Florida you know he yes down south in in it it was pretty amazing that he came back for his girlfriend I mean he had fled and had managed to elude authorities at a time in the 50s when they didn’t have the the types of you know electronic tracking that they have today but but yes he went off with a girlfriend and came back because she wanted to return home they they get him in the box after they arrest him over in Revere and he gives up some of the bank robbers they don’t know about yeah well that’s a surprising part that we found in the in the prison files and I know you you saw those same files you broke the story thank you but but it was a fascinating to see that in you know when you look back to these old prison files you see that when whitey was caught he realizes that he wants to save his girlfriend so he tells authorities the identities of two of his accomplices in the bank robberies it’s the first evidence of him cooperating with law enforcement but he’s careful that there’d be no record of that he is sentenced to 20 years in prison but the agreement is that she will be spared and she was never charged even though she had been with him at the time of a couple of these robberies he’s already caused already caused the family a lot of heartache but now he’s going to prison and the story gets interesting here because he has one leading advocate in the family and it is an interesting part of the book we call that chapter 2 the University of Alcatraz because why do you use prison as his the school he never went to but what’s going on simultaneously is Billy Bulger his younger brother emerges as his advocate he’s the guy and Billy was only a law student at the time but the first thing he did was he went to the Dean of Boston College Law School a Jesuit priest named Bob dryin and you may recognize as a congressman later in life and the first guy the call for Richard Nixon to be impeached and and Billy knew that you know when you’re in prison it looks pretty good if your pen pals with a priest but I think there was more than that I think Billy really didn’t I think he really did believe that hooking whitey up with a guy like Brian and would be good for his brother that his brother had gone down this wrong path I think was Jackie whose combination it looks good if the he’s this pen pal but it also would be good for Jimmy when he gets out and so drying and emerges is a very it’s funny because we look at my grand over to be see when I found out him Shelley got the records and said this is parole advisor is Bob dryness I couldn’t be kidding me so I run over to BC and go through the files nothing barbed Reiner was no dummy he but I did find one letter and the reason the letter was there it would unless you knew it you wouldn’t know it because all it said his dear father drying and at the end and said Jim but it said I’m sitting in Suffolk County Jail that’s Jimmy Bulger ft good sentence but Billy did more than that he enlisted the support of John McCormick who the only reason the bulges even lived in South Boston because of John McCormick as a young and up-and-coming congressman he signed on with the New Deal and was a worker for FDR and of course there’s got to be a quid pro quo by the way can you put that first housing project in New England in my district thank you very much that’s the only reason the vols has moved in there and so John MacCormack was then enlisted by Billy to also advocate for her because they were very frustrated because he was so far away he first gets sent to Atlanta and you know Billy could only go it was very expensive he’s a law student you don’t have any money so he’s going down there maybe once a year and that so you have the Speaker of the House of Representatives calling the director of the US Bureau of Prisons say can you go check on one of my constituents and the guy jumps on a plane and go sees whitey and Alcatraz a two-bit bank robber this is and the head of the prisons is how are things going Jim it’s just extraordinarily random the fact that the majority leader of the house at that time is John McCormack and he’ll become Speaker of the House and Billy’s Billy is graduated from BC but before even starts law school he has the Dean of the law school weighing in now of course Billy is the the most

educated in the family and I mean obviously the family’s upset there’s a lot of compassion and love for his brother it’s demonstrated here and in fact in the letters that you see that whitey is writing home he’s writing that you know you know how he intends to get out of prison and do well and how he’s working hard and you know trying to follow all the rules and make sure he’s you know can do everything possible to be released early and the letters seem so sincere and you know friends that we interviewed that spent time with him in Alcatraz say that he owned the fact that he was the black sheep of the family and he really intended to do well and and is talking about after billy’s you know was first elected that he wanted to make his brother proud so I think that he is and he’s writing to it you know he was allowed to write to ten people in prison and as Kevin said you know three of them were priests and you know he’s he’s really he’s talking to talk but he needed to talk to get the support of the prison authorities moving moving along we’re in Alcatraz it’s extraordinary when you see the photos of Bulger in prison it’s just extraordinary because the first shot when he goes when he goes to Atlanta he looks mean but he’s scared scared scared and then you see the second shot he’s a little harder harder older but he’s still not there he comes out of Leavenworth I’m sorry he comes out of Alcatraz he looks like an Aryan he is he is calm and you realize the weightlifting I realize he has pulled it together and this is the scariest bulge of all absolutely he went to professional school and alpha tres exactly this grad school and that it’s funny because when we looked particularly the letters that Shelly got for the book he talks about Alcatraz the way you and I might talk about our alma mater and he’s as fond of any in his connections you know you and I uh remember those keg parties back at UMass those it was awesome he talks about I remember in like cellblock three or it’s funny because one of the one of the alleyways one of the corridors in in Alcatraz is called Broadway I still have a hard time believing I’m very skeptical of the idea that that Whitey’s participation in the LSD experiments and taking LSD created lifelong nightmares and psychological problems I am a product of sixties I knew a lot of people who were involved in less scientific drug experimentation but they sleep pretty well and they don’t kill a lot of people that I know you know it’s hard to say but remember he was injected with this stuff which i think is a little different than taking a tab of LSD the other thing is I think it’s pretty well documented yeah by friends and lovers that this was an issue in his life he he became a nocturnal animal he could not sleep he had nightmares and you know one of the things we have in the book is he actually went to see a psychiatrist about this like a lot Tony Soprano so there’s whitey on the cows my victims don’t understand me so I mean I think I think it but I think it’s a combination because we took Kevin weeks was one of you know one of what he’s henchmen and Kevin cooperated with the book he was very generous with his time with us and he said that he saw it as kind of why he wanted to get this on the record because he why do you always knew there would be a day of reckoning and that he wanted this on the record that he was treated for this so I think it’s a combination it’s hard for us to say unless we had him here and boy I wish we had him here but what I find what I find surprising is that if I’m not mistaken he got the benefit of only a day’s time for each acid trip now well they didn’t and actually there’s some evidence when he got to Alcatraz he discovered that he had not been credited with all the time he should have been credited with for undergoing these treatments these LSD injections and for the first time you can see that whitey is learning that he how to you know if you’re a reasonable and you’re sort of calculated you can achieve what you want he writes a very polite letter to the prison authorities in Atlanta saying you know I believe I am owed more time and and he actually prevailed and they credited him with the time that he had not originally been given so that he could get out a little bit earlier long way from Southie to Alcatraz mm-hmm and yet he is there he is there when John Kennedy becomes president Southie is Southie is wild Catholics yeah southeast wild and he’s celebrating in Alcatraz yes he was thrilled there was a tribal it was a victory for the tribe that’s what have been how he would see it and muy DS

Irishness was important to him so that was terrific and but obviously things change things change Kennedy’s Jack Kennedy he’s dead when he gets out it was selfie well something was different in one way for sure because all of a sudden he gets out 1965 and suddenly there is a circular firing squad of Irish gangsters in South Boston right timing is everything though I mean first of all it’s interesting that you know before Jack Kenny died he appointed as US Attorney in Boston a lawyer named Arthur Garrity so why do you get something Garrity I should point out was the advance man and one of the close campaign workers for John F Kennedy during the presidential run and so what he gets out and timing is everything because while he’s in the can the Irish has they want to do engage in a huge boat of frat aside and the Irish guy I mean that’s one of the weird things of a boss and by sheer numbers didn’t have numbers the Irish had run the town but they did not have the coalescing force of La Cosa Nostra that the Italians did to go around so he had little factional groups and you put Irish guys in the room the first thing that happens is a split you know and and so the Irish are killing each other so whitey comes out in 60 if he had been on the street there’s a good chance he would have been a victim or a perpetrator of that violence in fact he was a beneficiary of it so he comes out all these guys are dead or in the canned and he rises very quickly and as Shelley said if you read these letters if you thought you would think this guy is going to he’s gonna go straight he wants to go straight to help to to get back in the graces of his family and I think what happened two things happen first of all he comes out and there’s he doesn’t even want to work he’s like I’m not getting up at seven o’clock to do this crap and you know he was working construction for a year and the other thing the opportunity was there cuz everybody was dead or in the can so those two things I think combine it he that I don’t know this work a day world I don’t need this baloney so he comes out and he very he goes back into the gang life and he’s working for the Colleen’s who run the rackets over there a huge book this was before the state became the biggest bookie in the state there was there was a bookmaker in every bar in Southie you everybody knew who they were they sat in the bar the whole day and you place numbers it was when you were kid and Savin hell it might have been legal but you know but but but what’s what’s interesting and we talk about the times having changed in the sort of this still you know the miliar of all this is that in the 50s even in the 60s a lot of people no no checkbooks don’t have checked checkbooks come in cash no credit cards banks don’t give loans they give loans for houses but so if you’re short of money you need something there’s a guy in the corner yeah and of course it’s so close to the New Deal and well then what happened before the New Deal with the banks going down bank robbers weren’t the lowest considered the least popular people in this society so so he gets out Shelia oh by the way I gotta I gotta ask it he’s in when he’s still in he gets a psychological report in Alcatraz that says he tends to be vain and have vain attitudes about his personality his character and his intelligence shocking isn’t it but isn’t that doesn’t that strike you now how perceptive it is I’m not an informant right I don’t strangle women I don’t do those sorts of things or father as he wrote to to dry ninh the letter that wasn’t delivered father I don’t waste my time talking talking about women because I know this is my chance to show exactly he was he was going crazy and Atlanta being in eight men sell because it drove him crazy that all they talked about were women and cars and so he rises much of the violence is over but he’s he’s rising in the ranks and we’re moving into the 70s and southeast changing at the same time right you want to talk about that because you in fact you were more affected Kevin you weren’t affected by no I weren’t you were in here but you were salty but I grew up Alton so tell us about what happened well I grew up right across the street and I’m Savin hills Savin Hill section of Dorchester and at that time our prior to desegregation our local high school was South Boston high school and so I was about to be a senior in high school I had spent three years at Southie high

when the first year busing and I have to tell you I mean I think that was generally a feeling I certainly felt that it was so fundamentally unfair to me that if you dared to express any opposition to busing you were immediately branded a racist and that was so unfair because I felt as a you know student getting ready to go into my senior year I didn’t want to go anywhere else I didn’t want to Wellesley you know and I certainly didn’t want to be any place other than that school and so I think that it was unfair that everybody was branded racist if you didn’t want to be part of that and so there was a real sense I think in South Boston and around the city that that that you know that that it was unfair and of course why he took that to a whole new level now I’m not saying that there weren’t people who were opposed to busing who weren’t it’s what gave Southie such a bad name nationally people you know racial slurs and throwing rocks at buses at school kids so I’m not certainly not suggesting they weren’t people that were racist but I do think there was a feeling that Outsiders telling us what to do and what we should do and and you know not understanding the legitimate argument against busing and that was a kennedy appointee a Kennedy at Kennedy appointee an outsider who came in right he was most one of the most despised people probably the most despised person in the town and two brothers become prominent opponents of busing in different ways as they would as they would work as they would lead parallel lives and often be involved in similar campaigns throughout life so you have two people both involved well Billy becomes the most outspoken articulate opponent of busing and whitey becomes the head of the military wing of that and decides that he will strike out and that you know one of the things he did was he was cute though what he was really cute because he knew he went anywhere near Gary’s house they’d be on him like flies on on flies and so he went to what he went to a school about half mile from wells Gary’s house in Wellesley and firebomb the school and then called the fire department said if you if our kids got to be bussed your kids got to be bussed and in fact those kids in Wellesley were busted for three months and then whitey very pointedly on the second when the second phase of busing started in 75 the day went off totally peacefully mostly because folks in Southie kept the kids home but white he couldn’t live with that he wasn’t living that so we have the scene in which he goes down and and and tries to get guys to go with him we talked to one guy it’s interesting because you know he said I’m gonna go I’m gonna go torch the Kennedy homestead in Brookline and some of the Irish guys he talked to down at the Mullins Club the gang house you know wondered that they like the Kennedys they didn’t want to do it as much as they were mad at Teddy Kennedy because Teddy had emerged as the most vocal supporter politically of judge Garrity and desegregation and busing so there was a lot of animosity directed at Teddy that would they the people that was celebrating Jack’s election in 1960 15 years later would see the Kennedys as the epitome of you know do as I say not as I do this said in their kids to private schools they don’t have to go through this stuff so but why he had trouble getting like these Irish American gangsters to get in the car with them to go do it but one guy did get in the car with them and they drive over to Beale Street in Brookline and first white he took out a spray Peking paint can and sprayed paints out in front of the house bus Teddy and then he takes them all at off cocktail and he goes to the back and throws it through the door and causes quite a bit of damage I think I think that the house was closed for maybe three months or so it was a lot of really confident that it’s the only homestead of a US president that was firebombed by a gangster and then his third act which it’s funny because Patton II who was an associate arrival so he actually told us the whole story that why’d he and Pat went over he says I gotta go shoot up the globe but Pat’s go let’s go because the globe was so despised for its support of busing in South Boston I mean they had been just ordinary people were blocking in the trucks I saw it with my own eyes because I would go to my Aunt Mary’s house on East second Street every Sunday my mother and her told the same stories every Sunday I hit Elizabeth but anyway they you could see it that people would when there was a globe truck pulling up on Broadway people would pull and like surround it so it couldn’t move and wide he decided they would shoot up the globe

so he stops on right out here on Morrissey Boulevard and shoots up and 12-gauge shotgun boom boom boom boom and he nearly hit a young security guy named John McAuliffe who was 18 years old and shared the same name as white his old girlfriend Jackie McAuliffe but no relation and then so the security you know they go crazy they drive away and so that the next day there’s cops lined out in front of the globe so white he goes up on the expressway and fires at the globe from that side and he was resourceful but the funny in the letters we got the letters that Shelley obtained for the book whitey talks at great length about he’s so proud of shooting up the and he describes it in the context of that they had to like put all millions of dollars into security he had to put all this bulletproof glass and they had to hire all these new security guards guys that have now retired with good pensions because of me he said he was a job creator Jimmy Jimmy balding job creator and what’s so interesting because some of these actions strike me as juvenile delinquency the spray paint you know the spring and even even the even even a tossing of the of the Molotov cocktail he’s not doing it with the big gay gang that he now controls he makes a phone call to Wellesley which I thought was interesting I’m gonna burn every school down if it takes me 30 years another thing sort of again sort of like a burst of anger all juvenile delinquency and yet these acts are occurring at the same time when he’s killing people at the fastest rate he’ll ever complete absolutely sons of Southie absolutely the the wasn’t one of the scenes we have in the book is that you know when he makes the deal with John collee that’s sitting in the car down in Wollaston and he says I’m no informant that’s he starts going with the sophistry crap that I’m this and that but I’m not an informant and then with within a month of that he he had always wanted to kill this guy named Tommy King who was a Mullins guy who he didn’t trust and he always thought that the Mullins guys who they kind of rut when that when the gang were ended and how we went to decided that whitey would be the key would control Southie and became a member of the Winter Hill Gang the Mullins guys were like wait a minute we were winning the gang war and now we’re like we have to answer this guy so why do you very consciously wanted to take out all the Mullins guys but it’s very interesting that within a month of being made you know you know an informant for the FBI he sets out to kill Tommy King and when he kills Tommy he buries his body secretly down near the the train state the train track that runs from Quincy over to two Neponset and then he kills a guy named Buddy Leonard who was front another Mullins guy and same day Tommy the same day and then he goes and sits with his his John Conlee and he tells him a story Tommy King killed buddy Leonard and Conley writes this down and disseminates it to the Boston Police Department’s they everybody gets this so the cops are out there looking for Tommy King and unless they were digging in the sand down by the bridge they wouldn’t find it but then that’s not enough then why he goes back and says oh the Mullins are gonna kill Tommy King because he killed buddy limit and then the third some weeks passed he sits down with Connolly again he says they took Tommy King out he’s dead and you’ll never find his body because they buried it I remember they so Tommy King was found buried on the other side of the Neponset River at the base of the train train and there were some people that had followed him during the 80s and they and they got a bug in the car for a while and the one thing they could never understand was what they were talking about and laughing about ahead of Tommy and so finally finally in the year 2000 they figured out what it meant when when Bulger would say to Martorano and whoever else was in the car tip your hat tip your hat fellas tip your hat to Tommy because they were driving over the bridge and they were referring to the fact that he was buried below and they thought nobody had find these guys so now you have so you have you have Bulger turning selphie is turning Bulger’s turning against the Kennedys against the people who brought Arthur Garrity into the neighborhood and even Dryden it strikes me that even it’s the either he turns even against Reiner I did well I talked to Bob Brennan’s sister Helen who was a longtime secretary at Boston College Law School

she said that Bob would very frequently bring it up at their Sunday dinners in Chestnut Hill how frustrated he said he spent so much time he invested so much time in bulging because they went right back into the into the you know the life of crime but you know this is like more you can’t make it up the reason that bussing even happened is because Bob Dryden was more or less the author of this incredibly important report that led to the racial imbalance Act here in Massachusetts even more or less you know skirted out the law he drew what was going to be the law and that was the law that the Boston School Committee ignored for ten years and they just let it go and they let it go and they they wouldn’t address it the schools were completely segregated and they wouldn’t do anything about it even though you know Bob Dryden’s report pointed this out and so busing very you know Garrity imposed busing largely because of what Bob Dryden wrote in 1965 the same year that white he gets out of the canned because Bob drying and is his parole adviser you can’t make this stuff up but we did Zoey Shelley I think you wrote I think you wrote that that it was wide there was a widespread rumor in Southie then in fact whitey had fire bombed a school and what well I think it was the school or maybe the birth may be the birthplace but I think was a school the people talked about this openly well I mean I think that you know for whitey trying to cultivate cultivate that reputation as sort of the neighborhood avenger that idea that you know he may be a gangster but he’s our gangster I mean I’m sure there are people in Southie who I mean they the globe was despised at that time there was this you know anger about busing so why’d he you know I don’t I’m not saying people would have condoned fireball I mean JFK’s birthplace I don’t think I was well but I but I think that you know certainly there were people cheering that he was shooting up the globe and they were very proud of that and as I said even now as he sits in Plymouth jail he’s writing letters about what a great day it was so you you one with one would figure that if something is sweeping the town if rumors are sweeping the town some people who are in the business of knowing what the town is thinking and what the rumors are include politicians and there’s his brother and we see this you and I were at the Government Reform Committee hearing when he testified under immunity in what 2003 and it seemed to be a parallel here because I remember 2003 in which he professed not bill professed not to know that his next door neighbor was when Winter Hill he professed not to know what Winter Hill was right that he didn’t know what his brother did 1986 President Reagan’s organized crime Commission comes out with a report saying that Whitey Bulger is a reputed killer drug dealer all-around criminal the only thing he’s really upset that they called him a drug dealer a drug deal he just posed the bank there was this dealer part but somehow there is this this disconnect as if didn’t did that strike you you I mean this has happened before with a with behavior during the political campaigns that Bill Bulger ran well yeah I mean I think that if you look at you know that whitey was very careful to put out this you know this promote this idea that that he had nothing to do with drugs that he kept the drugs out of the town and there were the old stories going back you know to the days when he was being touted as this sort of Robin Hood figure and of course John Connelly his handler is telling people he would never do drugs oh no no no he’s not into that at all and in you recall there was even some testimony at one point by cam weeks saying that Connelly went to see Billy after white he was first indicted and said oh no no no he no he would never be involved in that sort of thing so I think that they were very careful to sort of cultivate this reputation within the community that he’s really not such a bad guy and what we found of course is that I mean over the years it’s he’s been charged with shaking on drug deal isn’t taking you couldn’t sell drugs and sell tea without paying a cut to whitey but we actually found that was an instance where he he traveled to the projects in South Boston with the cocaine a kilo of cocaine and in the car according to Steve Flemmi he said he was very upset what are you doing and it was at a time when the DEA and the Boston police were trailing them and he was really nervous and but that whitey felt

just that invincible in South Boston right back so we have we we go on Ted Kennedy Ted Kennedy in fact if I’m not mistaken Kennedy was accosted the same day that Ted landmark was speared with a flag if I’m not mistaken I don’t recall that you might know that better than but but the town changes toward toward Ted Kennedy Kennedy’s job into Democrats absolutely absolutely that’s absolutely right I mean you know that there was such vehement opposition to busing and and Ted was you know the the biggest you know supporter of that and so yes there was a lot of anger I mean and that’s the attack on the on the JFK birth birthplace Ted Kennedy though was there thick and thin for for Bill Bulger wasn’t he he was one of the he was when yes I mean when Mitt Romney was calling on on Billy to step down as president of the University of Massachusetts it was Ted who supported him I don’t think Ted knew the story about the Molotov cocktail on Beale Street might have been different I apologize you gotta go see a man about a horse so Ted Ted Ted was magnanimous and yet it’s funny because I remember I was asking Shelly I think it was the Ted was accosted by the crowd the same time the same day the Deadlands mark got speared he was walking through that area a lot different than 1969 I remember another muffles saved Teddy that date Walter Fahey was probably one of the greatest street cops in Boston and he opposed busing but he actually rescued Teddy that day and kind of moved him into the JFK building it was a big article it was a dramatic change within a few years from nineteen it was 19 1969 1969 era was actually was 70 was after the accident down at Chappaquiddick Ted came through South Boston he was kind of coming out again in public got a huge hand huge applause along the way I remember Marty Nolan Marty Nolan told me he came over he Martinho on Globe reporter he said he said Ted came over through the crowd as he was getting cheered along the way and Ted came over and said they love you when you’re down it’s such an Irish thing they love you when you’re down so it is we go back to that we go back to the Alcatraz analysis very high opinion of his principles so he’s fighting for Southie he’s fighting on against busing he’s killing the sons of southies he’s probably kids commits most of his murders in that cluster of years and he’s also as you’ve noted he’s he’s charging charging fees to traffic dealers and this is all at the same time drug dealers it’s the same time when the rate of suicides in Southie is escalating people jumping on roofs it is hard to reconcile yeah and as we try to show that what he what he’s in whole life there was an arc of myth-making so when he was a you know a young tailgater and then a bank robber he was you know taking mrs. Mowgli home from the groceries and all that stuff and then you know as he’s emerging is this you know obviously dominant criminal he’s spreading the stuff that you know the kick and the drug dealers out of Southie and you know there are a lot of people that would have been on the payroll a legitimate payroll because Bill Bulger got them jobs and they all believed I heard people say that when I lived here in the 80s and the 90s the cornerstone at the McKean post when I went to the veterans post people said this Jimmy Bulger keeps the drugs out of Southie I’m like you gotta be kidding me I’d see people doing lines on the Boz and West Broadway was there was more cocaine here you know per capita than I think any neighborhood in the city it was all over the place and so there was that sort of the myth making on going on there and there were people that propagated that myth but you and I as you cited that I mean they were there are hardly any families over there that weren’t touched by drugs and it didn’t have kids that were involved in the life and it’s I found that personally I found that when I was a young reporter at the first at the Herald and then at the globe I found it insulting when people would suggest that to me that you know Jimmy Valda kept the drugs out of Southie because I lived there and I knew it was

not true and I knew so many people that had trouble with drugs we’re gonna open the floor to questions in about four or five minutes and before we do that I think we’ll probably get a lot of questions I’m guessing about current events before we do that and to close this segment let’s talk about the consequences we’ve reported we’ve all reported about the 19 murders horrible murders families devastated talk about the consequences of this war on organized crime launched by Bobby Kennedy with zeal in pursuit of enemies and what some of those consequences were – selfie to the city to the state level the war worked la cosa nostra these guys you look around all they get a sports book left but I mean you could also argue that the Massachusetts the lottery did as much as anybody to put these guys out of business because they the number was their bread butter and they lost the number but I mean they were you know there were obvious concert I would say the biggest consequences for you look at this is that the nation’s premier law enforcement agency was totally corrupted and it wasn’t a bad agent and a bad supervisor if you see in our book we got guys in Washington in headquarters reading reports that whitey and Stevie Flemmi are implicated in four murders in a 15 month period and they’re not saying close them out we can’t deal with these guys they’re describing them as assets so I think the biggest consequence is if you look at and the one thing I don’t like when Bob Bala the FBI director it’s you know dismissively suggests this is ancient history I don’t accept that I don’t accept that it’s ancient history because as recently as last year we reported about them using a guy named mark Rosetti who’s implicated in a number of murders and they didn’t have a problem with it so I think that’s the biggest consequence the idea that our and and that’s the other thing we Chile and I really felt strongly there been many books written about Whitey Bulger probably too many but none of those books really paid anything but lip service to the victims and you know what the victims who are to us are not names we know these people we’ve seen them we’ve talked to them we’ve been in their houses and they have been treated so shabbily by it’s fine you’re talking about the FBI did this but since the FBI corruption was exposed our Justice Department has treated these people like dirt and they have wasted our taxpayer money by not settling with these families and carry on these these Fiasco’s downtown in courthouses flying guys up from the Justice Department and and they or they embarrass me and they disrespect these people and that to me is the other part of this story that the corruption continued it was a different form of corruption the Justice Department ignored this stuff when whitey was killing people and then after it’s exposed instead of doing the right thing as Tommy Donny whose father was murdered on the waterfront 1982 said to me you know everybody thinks all we care about is the money but he was what I would really like is for my government to apologize to my mother and I don’t think Tommy done to you was asking too much did you talk to purchase her belly did you talk to Pat Donovan did you talk to Patricia Downey who I was that was a very touching part of the book and I just walk baby just just quickly talk about her and her story because I just thought that that gave just that gave a heartbeat to that the pain and the agony well yeah I think part of the problem at the YT story over the years is that people do romanticize him I mean that you see these you know Hollywood like the departed trying to make them to be like you know this romantic figure when in fact there is there there are so many people that were devastated by this and the dawn of humor I mean that is one of the saddest stories I mean she you know she’s home cooking dinner waiting you know on the phone with him I’m coming I’m coming she’s waiting for him to come home and they have these three young boys and she sees the car on the news that’s how she finds out that he’s dead she’s watching the news and sees but the bullet-riddled car and knows that you know he’s been hurt and is calling frantically calling hospitals it takes a long time before she even gets a call from anybody telling her that he’s in the hospital and when she finally goes she finds out that he that he’s dead but for years I mean the way she was treated they actually FBI agents actually asked accuse her of having an affair that maybe she had an affair and that was why her husband was killed and and they actually you know they there was a trial

as you know and Jimmy Flynn who resembled whitey apparently allegedly was wearing – and he look like fake mustache and look like Jimmy Flynn Jimmy he’s acquitted of the murder and Pat just thanks well you know she still thinks maybe he did it so it takes years and when they finally file a suit against the government the case is dismissed not because they didn’t have a case well actually they they go to trial they they at first they prevail they get a judgement and then the appeals court dismisses it it’s taken away from them you know they they finally get their day in court yeah and and it’s taken away in the and the judge the judges ruled that the appeals court rules in a split decision that yeah you know you should have known sooner that the FBI was corrupt waited too late to file your suit sorry and the one judge who you know the dissenting yeah he says it was actually more than one judge that dissented but Torelli wrote this amazing opinion where he called it official uncontrolled wickedness there’s two images that strike me so much and when John Connelly they talk about ruined lives John Connolly an FBI agent who you know obviously engaged in corruption took money from these guys helped them get people killed but as we say the book John Connolly did exactly what the FBI expected of them he learned at the foot of Paul Rico and you do play God when you’re an FBI agent you do decide who dies who lives and he did it and now he’s convicted of racketeering you were there when that happened John drives home to Linfield that night and explains to his sons he sits his three sons on the couch and he said it was the hardest thing he ever had to do he told Shelley this when Shelley interviewed him I had to tell my son’s I was going to jail and it’s a very moving moment when and I remember reading the the interview when Shelley gave it to me and I read it but you know my next thought was Pat Donny who did the same thing she took Michael who was 13 Shaun who was 11 Tommy who was 8 8 years old and put them on the couch and said dad died and before she got the words out Tommy started crying so those are the two images I leave you with and the reason Donahue died according to the government is because John Connelly had betrayed the identity of the informant Halloran the whitey and Stevie ladies and gentlemen now you understand what that sagas are told all night long in front of campfires we don’t have any time to continue this so let’s have questions from the floor for the next half hour yes their microphones there right both both aisles have microphones could you come over and thank you right there in the middle of the aisle thank you um could you talk a little bit about what he Bulger’s relationship with how we winter well Howie I mean we talked to Holly for the book and Howie I mean the funny thing about Howie let’s go back we have a tendency of course to to assume that everybody understands all the names on the roster how he went or was the leader of the Winter Hill Gang which was not named for him his name for that section as Somerville and you know when whitey whitey sued for peace when the Mullins had the upper hand and the gang war in Southie and he was he was ingenious he made the move he went to Howie and said you need to mediate this and how he told us he was very impressed by Jimmy in the sense that you know he knew he carried himself he was charismatic he had done that now a guy like how he would have been very impressed that he did time in Alcatraz he wouldn’t if you’re in that life that’s very impressive that’s like what you read in a resume oh you went to heart I mean Harvard oh you went to Alcatraz that’s very impressive so and and so how he decided this and the funny thing is that culturally and socially how he was more comfortable the Mullens guys didn’t sit around the bar and drink and whitey wasn’t that kind of guy he wasn’t a drinker but what how he looked at whitey and said this guy is gonna make me money and the Mullens guys were a little undisciplined they were kind of these guys the mullahs guys they all were fighting in the Vietcong in the jungles they were gonna take crap from anybody over there but how we recognized and made him to you know his great regret to this day because what how he ended up going into the into prison on a race fixing case in which Stevie and

whitey will remove from the case because they were informants and they were allowed to their that not only did that you know it’s all finally good that they got rid of that competition in mafia but they got rid of their company they’re come their friends their friends went to prison and they they you know blossom because of it you know how he winter said that he did think that whitey was a little off because he recounts a couple of stories one is that they were in the garage they all hung out at Somerville and these women used to come and they were kind of like wiseguy groupie and they would bring dinner to the live guys and one day he came into the garage and this woman is tied to a chair and white he’s throwing knives like a circus act you know by her head and then he’s like geez something’s wrong with him and he said another time they were it was the Bicentennial and they were at a club down if it Nia Fanueil Hall and he said why he thought it was funny to take this woman by her ankles and hang her over the ledge of the roof I do that all the time the same person stops the car across the street I read your book and I read declares biography of whitey and I noticed there were a few little discrepancies one of which was the story of how Whitey’s father lost his arm and if I recall correctly you cited your sources Billy Bulger’s book I’m wondering how reliable a source do you consider Billy Bulger I don’t know I mean it’s his family but yeah I mean I don’t want to say that well it’s it’s it’s it’s interesting because we have you were talking before about myth mythology and myth making and his family that would have been the myth that the poor hard-working father lost the arm when he was you know working at a real got the yard and it turns out poor hard-working filed a lawsuit when he was much younger just goofing around and yet families sometimes family and just need certain what polite lies to get by perhaps this one I think I like this one but this one but this one was used often the story the description of the father was used often but I mean you know however he lost the arm is one thing but the fact that he lost the arm really impacted the family because he couldn’t be an earner there wasn’t yeah you know there weren’t services for the disabled then there wasn’t anything it’s how they ended up in South Boston really it’s because they were poor and the father had difficulty supporting them that they qualified to live in the project sir so I have a couple questions one was stepping back in time with the Brinks robbery down in Plymouth with whitey and then with the Bennett brothers what the connection was with whitey going off to jail and coming back and then retaliation and where did the Bennett brothers spit into the he he really had nothing to do with Stevie was connected with the better brother’s murder why do you I don’t even know if what he knew them he would have been in the can before they started getting hills away fine this way I find the story and the ear is so fascinating because all the neighborhoods had had their own young guys Roxburgh charge of gambling into the fold and that’s where he got his start definitely I know why he served time with one of the guys that was involved in the Plymouth robbery I believe but you know it I got asked this question I mean it is you you mentioned before about the Mafia we’re talking about the Mafia and it was it was interesting that that Whitey and Stevie got work because contract killings because the Mafia was short on or useful killers very Angelo complained it I can’t get anybody to kill my guys are useless so they found plenty of people they found plenty of people for plenty of Irish Americans willing to do the job and so you know the whole story it’s like the Italian Americans like me we we keep on wondering why they kept on going after the vowel people well that goes back to you that comes back to what you said about the war on organized crime and the fact that it was a national strategy that really didn’t take into account regional differences and they didn’t consider the FBI wasn’t considering that at some point the Irish were really you know just as dangerous if not more so than the Mafia in Boston but they didn’t they didn’t go down that road at some point obviously protected them you know three of you have studied the FBI as long and as closely as anybody and never sued them like you Harvey hasn’t gotten anywhere either ladies and gentle gentlemen

Harvey silverglade my civil libertarian general attorney got and so my question is this how do you explain or can you explain how it is that for all the time you’ve been studying the FBI and the time I’ve been dealing with them the culture of the organization hasn’t seemed to change at all attorneys doesn’t matter we’ve had some pretty good attorneys general some bad ones terney no Attorney General has changes culture no director of the FBI has changed its culture how can this be I’m reminded of the movie Grand Hotel you know that the directors go and the attorneys general go and they come but the Grand Hotel goes on forever can you explain the resistance of the FBI to change Howie Harvey like all good lawyers you know the answer to your question before you ask it but I’m over your I know I know I know like I said this is I’ve argued this for many years the idea that the FBI learned it’s lesson from the Bulger debacle is baloney and all I would say is look at the mark Rosetti case you know it’s it’s it’s it’s a mini Bulger that’s what the staties call him they call a mini Bulger so I mean and the reason look at the way the the Justice Department’s spun this from the very beginning it was a rogue agent and his rogue supervisor no it wasn’t and it like John Connally did nothing that Paul Rico didn’t do so that it was right through the organization and so when the Justice Department at in my opinion the idea that John Connelly is the only agent that is in prison for the behaviors that the FBI engaged with with Whitey Bulger is a farce it’s an outrage and when John Durham the special prosecutor finished the prosecution of John Connolly in 2002 he promised that he would release a report there would be a report and I believe Mike Sullivan the US Attorney echoed it and said we will release a report and we will identify the agents that did all this stuff I’m I’m glad I didn’t hold my breath waiting for that report as I would be long dead I have that on tape it was 2000 when he said he’d have it in three months I asked him three months later where it was he smiled at me two years later when Connolly was convicted they had a press conference afterwards I asked him where the where the report was smile they wasted millions of dollars and we kept on wondering where the report was it was never turned in there isn’t that report one of the most striking things we have in the book and it’s we don’t go into it’s not a huge but it’s there and there’s a report in which Steve Flemmi gave it to briefing to the DEA and State Police and he alleged that an FBI agent took 40 pounds of c-4 explosives and gave it to whitey and Stevie says that whitey then gave it to the Irish Republican Army now that’s kind of a bombshell no pun intended so Shelley calls the agent and said what do you have on what do you say to this you go I never did that and then Shelley’s second question was what did you what did that authority when you were questioned about this by the FBI or the judge what did they say nobody ever questioned me what do you want – we don’t really know because the so many reports are still on to seal I mean the you know not only this report that gave some full accounting of what their findings were just in this case but there are thousands of documents that are on the seal and there’s no reason for that I mean there’s you know we have findings by judges in the civil cases that the FBI is an institution was liable and that they stuck their heads in the sand and that they you know that they deliberately looked the other way in cases in sabotage efforts of other law enforcement agencies to go after whitey so there’s still too many things I would like to see Bill Bratton become the next FBI director not because it’s a Dorchester guy because I think he would address that culture we actually got Robert but all right who was Robert Muller was an active US attorney here in Boston he was here during the 80s had a good reputation I actually thought that when he became the head of the FBI we were gonna have some turnover and in reform in that organization by way of an answer Harvey it’s interesting there were two competing organizations in the 1950s one that believed in organized that it was organized crime was there one that didn’t the one that didn’t was the FBI the one that did was the FBN the Federal Bureau of Narcotics it was a predecessor of the DEA Bobby Kennedy in the nineteen mid-1950s loved traveling with these

guys he went out at night with them made arrests with them and there were reports that he loved beating up suspects with them he was fighting the enemy within perhaps with too much zeal which is another lesson here Jagger Hoover who was a Methodist wanted agents who were Jesuit trained and if you look at the number of FBI agents you’ll find extraordinary numbers from Holy Cross VC from BC from Georgetown from smaller colleges and the Jesuits Jesuits who I love you find both ends of Jesuits but what’s the virtue of the order obedience and Hoover had an organization that was all about public relations he was the first public relations expert that’s why I have the most wanted program you know America’s Most Wanted it was driven by largely by public relations but Bob Muller is Princeton and he hasn’t seemed to have changed anything yeah and that’s the institutionally you know sometimes people people go back to the move the invasion of Body Snatchers you know these pods behind them and they become the next when Bob was US Attorney I actually sat down with him for an interview I asked him could he tell me anything about Bulger no I said were you aware that this was after we report he was an informant he said were you aware he was an informant and he said off the record all right no comment and the day Bulger was arrested he flew in and the FBI jet flew in under the radar note and he went to the office they had tea or coffee and cake with the agents and he flew back out under the public radar I remember I think it was I think it was John McIntyre one of the murder victims his brother was there and and he talked about the fact that you know he said to me Steve Flemmi is a monster he killed my brother but that monster got up and said I’m sorry in a courtroom I haven’t heard that from Bob Muller I haven’t heard that from the US Attorney well you know I actually had an experience with Muller that resonates now that I hear you talking I went down about 20 years ago I represented still do Jeffrey MacDonald in the fatal vision murder case and I had uncovered a tremendous amount of real corruption in the prosecution of McDonald I Muller was head of the criminal division at main justice and you know we knew each other from Boston so he I asked for an audience with him he said sure come on down I walk into this huge conference room and he’s got FBI agents lined up on one side and he’s got people from main justice lined up in the other I walk into the room and the first he looks at me and says welcome Harvey one thing before we start criticism of the Bureau is a non-starter why did I bother flying down the shuttle criticism of the bureau that’s what we’re dealing with but I think it’s fairness we also have to point out that there’s there’s equal trouble in the Justice Department itself amongst in this case there are a number of people to point out as well federal prosecutors who were involved as well not just the FBI you mentioned talking to Kevin weeks we talked to someone like him so many awful things he’s got an agenda how do you determine whether what he tells you is that incredible he’s testified under oath you know at a number of trials and you know and jurors have found him credible and so I mean we we quote you know his story has been pretty consistent and he spent five years in jail for in prison for being an accessory on five murders and his deal is that if he gets caught in a lie his deal is null and void now you know why he’s been writing for prison from prison you know from jail from the Plymouth Jail to a friend that there are two things that he most wants to refute when he takes the stand at his upcoming trial one I was never an FBI informant and two that he did not kill the women two of the 19 victims of women and he’s very adamant that he did not kill those women and you know one of the murders Deborah Davis it’s Whitey’s word against Steve Flemmi and toss him that’s it that one of the other murders Deborah Hussey it is ten weeks and Steve Flemmi who both say they witnessed you know why’d he kill her so it’s really for a jury to decide but you know you have a jury we say these guys are criminals what do you believe but in addition to the juror on

people in addition to the jury the bones say he was telling the truth because he told them where they would find the bodies they found the bodies so that corroborated his story quite a bit there’s another thing too like that’s always the key when these criminal trials you know the the lawyers will get up and say you can’t believe they said it at John congas trial in Miami they said it in Boston you can’t believe these criminals they’re they’re all liars it’s like well yeah those are the guys you picked to be FBI informants right they were okay when you use them to make cases against people but they say oh they’re liars you can’t believe anything but interestingly one thing that I found the most convincing was on John Martorano he’s pled guilty to killing 20 people serve 12 years in prison is a free man because he’s testified against you know Conley and others he came forward and said we killed Richard Kasturi in 1976 a nightclub owner from Revere because we found out that he was an FBI informant now when he came forward with the story in 98 1998 everybody’s looking the prosecutors didn’t know that nobody knew that he was an FBI informant from that time frame and they went back and dug through really old files and there it was it was not something that was out on the street that people knew how would John Morano know that he was an FBI informant unless as he said he was told they were told by an FBI agent so you just have to put the pieces together and that’s that will be for people to decide as the case goes to trial thank you yes sir thank you I’d like to hear your opinion as to what you feel the diligence or the sincerity was of the FBI in their search for a Bulger after he he fled the for the first two years they didn’t find him because they weren’t looking for him and as we detail in the book that was a farce they assigned the initial search for Whitey Bulger to the very organized crime squad that was corrupted by him so the idea that they were looking for him was a joke and they they missed a lot of opportunities they just they just they didn’t want to find that’s my opinion and and the the thing that you know when it became a multi-agency task force by that time that the trail had gone cold there are some people still believe that the FBI was good because they controlled the search they still didn’t want to find him but it’s really interesting that the last chapter we have when he gets captured we describe how this task force that at one time was like 12 guys and women is down to just two people an FBI agent named Phil towards me and a deputy US Marshal named Neil Sullivan and they are the two that put the strategy together go looking for Kathy as opposed to looking for whitey and they found him within a year but was just two guys that did it and so and it was it was important that it was somebody from the US Marshals office absence for years they should have been a fee I was in a transition it was about institutional turf and they didn’t want anybody involved in that search they denied the chance to have the the u.s marshals the u.s. marshals amongst the people that I know in the fugitive hunting business had a much better reputation and it was Neil Sullivan and his entry what four or five months before he was that he was that he was the one who sitted and took the call I mean you know I spent some time you know over the years with talking to some of the people that were on that task force and and I do I wouldn’t paint everybody with this broad brush there were people that really wanted him I mean at some point they were agents FBI agents included on that task force who it would have been a great career maker for them to be the one to find him and they had no allegiance to these guys that had been on the organized crime squad but having said that they still haven’t really opened up their the files to show why they didn’t a certain tips I still haven’t been able to find out why nobody called the guy who thought he saw whitey at the Santa Monica Pier and reported it to you know America’s Most Wanted it it was turned over to the FBI he never even got a call back something like six to eight tips to America’s Most Wanted that came within a quarter of a mile of where they found him there was one in there was one in San Diego where a person the train station Amtrak that should have raised a red flag because he had used Amtrak where there was somebody that looked like him with a South Boston accent that wanted to send a package to South Boston or took it back here he called and he was

never visited by anybody and so there are lots of these cases where people weren’t visited but Shelley’s right I mean a lot of that stuff we still don’t see time Dave it’s hard I believe in the beginning the church was corrupted I believe later it’s hard to sort out what was corruption and and what was incompetent really yeah just one one quick story because Shelly talked to Teresa Stanley a lot Teresa Stanley was dropped off unceremoniously let go in 1996 the older woman being dropped off for a younger woman to go on the road so go back to Shakespeare and detectives play things by numbers hell hath no fury like a woman scorned she was back on silver Street in South Boston what two three miles as the crow flies from the FBI office they didn’t get to see her for 18 months when they talked to her she gave up the one alias that one alias that they did not have Thomas Baxter and Thomas Baxter was somebody who had a New York license New York plates and that car had been spotted elsewhere in the country but it didn’t come up they did not have Thomas Baxter in the system so that was the sort of stuff at the beginning in June 1997 I wrote in The Globe disclosed for the first time publicly that an FBI agent and I didn’t say was me I said it was a Globe reporter because I was writing up I couldn’t write a first-person account that an FBI agent called me at the spotlight office at the Globe two months before we published the series that said that whitey was a form of the FBI and the agent said that he was cute because he said that he was calling because he had talked to his protected witness Tony chilla and he said this is a message from chilla he said we know what you’re working on you’re gonna say he’s in an FBI informants not true and if you write that he will not live that live with that and he would think nothing of clipping you which means murder and then the agent Tom Daley said especially you Kevin you live there now Tony children didn’t know I live in South Boston but Tom Daley did I put that in the paper in 97 and a year goes by I’m now the I’m based in Ireland full time and in July of 1998 I’m sitting in the Crown Bar in Belfast which is one of the finest establishments on earth and I was allegedly working interviewing an IRA men and my cell phone rang it was an FBI agent in Boston he said we wanted to talk to you about that thing you had in the paper I go what thing I had in the paper and he reads it back to me I said John I put that in the paper 14 months ago he goes yeah we’re just getting around to it and I go I’ll tell you what I’m busy click yes sir I was just wondering if if you thought when Whitey Bulger comes to havest his trial if you think that he’ll give some reliable information you think he’ll say loyal to is he’s loyal to one person himself I think he’ll make all sorts we actually put this in the prologue we said he’ll make all sorts of allegations it’s gonna be very hard to corroborate anything he says I know that when he took off there was rumors that he had tapes and stuff like that but there’s no evidence that he has I think whitey like as you’ll see it’s all it’s gonna be all whitey all the time it’s Whitey’s world we’re just living in it so you’ll see it at the trial he could in his letters he says that he calls it the show the big show the big circus so and that’s what it’s going to be it’s the tents not big enough for this one but I do think I do think though I will say this that I think it’s really important that he get to trial and that he take the stand and we care what he has to say I know that you know the victims families they really want to hear what he has to say and there is some concern that he’s locked up 23 hours a day down in Plymouth that he’s 83 and you know back and forth to the hospital and I just think it’s really important that if he doesn’t get to trial there will always be this sort of the conspiracy theories that he had something he could have told us and they they wouldn’t let him tell it so I think we all want to hear what he has to say whether we believe it is another question but at some point he has said that he’s not going to not going to testify against people that helped him so he is he has told people in the in the system not that he he’s not going to

not going to talk about the people who helped him and who he paid off so there’ll be some pay that I also thought I also thought it was interesting because he told the same person I’m talking to I have and I’m having problems I know I’m having problem with my short-term memory but my long-term memory is great yes the last question right mentally competent today I just play one of my newspaper column Oh far as we know I mean when he was out in California Kathy was telling neighbors that he had early Alzheimer’s but that was simply to account for why he wasn’t out so much you know that he would only come out in the morning or later in the evening and after Bin Ladin was caught he really was hunkering down and she was telling people that his Alzheimer’s was really you know a problem but from the letters and I saw and I’ve seen quite a few letters that he’s written since he’s been in jail I’d say there’s he’s sharp as a tack I mean I don’t think there’s anything wrong with his mental capacity though the conditions under which he’s held I don’t quite understand I don’t know why he’s locked up 23 hours a day you the conspiracy theorists among us would suggest that the government does not want this guy to get to trial he’s 83 years old up until recently he was doing 155 push-ups a day in his cell and then writing furiously and I’m sure he’s thrilled that Shelley and I got ahold of his letters but I don’t understand why you would do that to an 83 year old guy if in fact you want him to be mentally competent you want him to be healthy enough to stand trial it doesn’t make any sense which is it you know unfortunately this is a this is a an ongoing policy the prisons more people in solitary than ever before John Connolly John Connolly is in solitary and he’s and in fact he talked he talked he broke a rule and talked to a reporter that wasn’t on his list last year and ended up going to solitary extreme solitary for 52 days so there is I just got a letter that John had written to a mutual friend and it it really suggested a lot of issues because he is locked up and it’s you wonder what that does you remember this because we were covering the hearings you know and the trials over the years and Steve Flemmi before he pled guilty to the ten murders and started cooperating with the government and agreed to be a witness in the ongoing trials bill he looked like he was ready to die they brought him into court he was yellow he was sickly he looked like he was at death’s door as soon as he joined the government team he looked like a million bucks they bring him in he little ten years younger he was eating well he’s waving to us from the you know the witness stand so I mean I think that they need to do better by whitey I really do he has and I’m not saying this in a sympathetic way I mean I know he’s charged with 19 murders a good tutorial he has not been to trial yet he why is you know taking eighty three-year-old men lock him up all that time not letting him exercise not would even get out no TV no radio I think he should be able to read our paper absolutely we need every subscriber we can get all right we have to put the campfire out before the next saga is told on behalf of the Kennedy Library thank you so much on behalf of Shelly and Kevin thanks for coming tonight there are books there are books to be signed nixed or if you’d like one you