Virtual [email protected] with Frances Frei and Anne Morriss

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Virtual [email protected] with Frances Frei and Anne Morriss

Welcome, everybody My name is Deb Wallace and I’m the Executive Director of Knowledge and Library Services at Harvard Business School, and I am delighted to welcome you to this special joint session that is co-sponsored by Baker Library’s Books at Baker, HBS Connects and HBP, our publishing arm So we’re really happy I see lots of names here and places who haven’t come to one of our sessions before So we hope this will just be your first of many and it will look forward to welcoming you back again But before I turn to Anne and Frances, a quick note of how we’re going to do this So first of all Frances and Anne are going to go spend about a half an hour talking about the content of their book And then we’ll open it up for questions As I said, if you haven’t had a chance to meet Anne and Frances yet you’re in for a real treat And so let me just introduce for a few seconds because these two ladies don’t need much introduction But Frances is the UPS Foundation Professor of Service Management and the Technology and Operations Manage Unit at HBS And she is a much beloved teacher whose classes are literally never a dull moment Her infectious enthusiasm for helping people learn how to create the conditions for organizations and individuals to thrive is legendary And Anne Morriss, a serial entrepreneur, has spent the last 20 years building and leading mission driven organizations, some or most recently serving as CEO and co-founder of Jean Peaks, a computational genomics company developing breakthrough ways to identify genetic risks Her latest venture is an innovative leadership accelerator, the leadership consortium, which enables leaders to scale excellence and embrace diversity and inclusion as a lever for dramatically improving performance Needless to say their work is incredibly timely As Arianna Huffington notes, Frye and Maurice have written the definitive guide to leadership today just when we need it the most And I think you’ll agree with a combined pandemic the racial and political strife for undergoing the devastating fires in the Western United States, and countless of other things happening all around the world And we know if we spent a time chronicling all of that, we would never get to what they’re talking about But I think you’ll join me in their choice of trust love and belonging are welcome aspirations to all of us So please join me in welcoming Frances and Anne And may I recommend that if you haven’t seen them in the past hold on to your hats, because you’re in for it That’s awesome Over to you my dears Good Thank you so much, Deb It’s such a pleasure and to all of the HBS institutions that are coming together for this, we have felt deeply supported by HBS Since the time I first walked in there they published both of our books So we feel blessed to be here So I guess get there What she said OK So here’s what we’d love to do, we’re going to talk to you, we’re going to use some slides because we find them to be helpful So the slides are going to look like this This is our book But we’re going to miss you too much So we’re going to still be up in the corner peeking in at you as we do it This is what our book looks like so it’s available, I, believe in all of the places that we saw But more importantly than that is that, it’s our second book We’re married, we have a dog, and two children The dog is back there, Rosie If you want to, following up with me on LinkedIn makes good sense And I prefer Twitter, which is probably a reflection of our personalities For sure a reflection of our personalities but you can get us in one or the other So I thought– I just want to warn people This is probably the most exciting and colorful of the slides So we [INAUDIBLE] taking kind of a minimalist approach I think that the content will bring them to life Actually it’s this last slide that has any color on That’s a very good, very good point Just to set expectations that we may be able to exceed So that is also Anne’s way of saying, I probably am the one who designed the slides So here’s what we’d love to talk to you about Oh let me try to move the picture down here for right now So principles of empowerment leadership So the first part of it is that leadership is not about us The second part, we have never met anyone who said,

in retrospect, I wish I had done less and I wish I had taken longer But context matters dramatically for empowerment leadership What worked over there does not pour over to here without understanding the diagnosis So we’re going to talk about how to do that The foundational part of all of this is how to build and rebuild trust What we’re going to try to compel at the end is that, whatever the circumstances you have now, they’re sufficient to begin And that the notion that they will be better in the future, we’re going to try to dissuade you of that So this is where we’re going to go I will begin with our favored definition of leadership And I think I’m going to move the picture up here because then I don’t have to look down So here’s how we think about leadership There’s three really important components of it One leadership is about making others better Leadership is not about us Leadership is about making others better first as a result of our presence and doing it in a way that endures into our absence When we wrote this book, it was before COVID, it was before any of these things We have all gotten into our absence much quicker than we were expecting So there will be a really important moment to dwell on how do we accelerate that B, what we show to every group we’re in front of, it doesn’t matter how big or how small, is without giving that definition we show this chart We do it with incoming MBA students and we say, if a great leader from the time they arrive to the time they depart, how would you chart other people’s performance? There has never been any controversy about this question Everyone around the world we’ve ever asked the question draws exactly the same curve It’s just up into the right Controversy comes out when we ask the following question, which is, when a great leader leaves, what happens to be original peoples performance? And still, in September of 2020, this is the most common response we hear Isn’t that incredible? Many of them say we’re supported by the data My presence is statistically significant My presence went up, in my absence, it went down I must matter a lot Like the zero one variable for us So not only do we get misguided with it, but the data helps support that this is good leadership What we have to do, of course, is move people from C type leaders to A leaders and you can think A for absence But our job to make the unit, the organization, the country, the nation, better off is that we are helping people to thrive into our absence And so this will be behind everything we talk about The summary statistic is this is what we mean when we say it’s not about us C Type leadership is very much ego nourishing Now as I mentioned, we just have never heard it And yet, every time we see someone on a change process, we’re all trying to seduce them to take off ramps to progress We’re trying to encourage them to do less We’re trying to encourage them to take longer Have you checked with so-and-so? I think we’re going through a lot, maybe we should slow down We are constantly being given the temptations of off ramps to do less and to do it slower So what I would say is, when you get on that highway of change, ignore the off ramps Even people who believe in change will offer off-ramps I don’t quite understand it psychologically, so I’m just going to say by brute force Once you’re started, ignore off-ramps Because no one has ever said this at the end And yet all of us will try to seduce one another to do it along the way And to your point, the critics are very well intentioned Oh my gosh They have the institution at heart, I mean they’re so well-intentioned If we listen to all of the well-intentioned people, we would do nothing later That would be the pace Next part Context absolutely matters when we’re going to talk about empowerment and about change Anything you want to do, we must honor the past If we don’t honor the past, means we’re not honoring the people that were here before us I promise you they will just keep coming up and pulling us back in It’s not honorable to dishonor them and they will never let us move forward So it is important, every, every step of the way, to honor the past Then to articulate a very clear and compelling change mandate Now most of the world has a clear and compelling change mandate With the global pandemic, with racial injustice, with all of the things that are going on right now, we have a clear and compelling change mandate

Sometimes we don’t, it’s our obligation to What we have to do is make sure we honor the past And then here’s what great leaders do Provide a rigorous and an optimistic way forward It can’t just be optimistic It’s going to be great, we are great, it’s going to be great That doesn’t work And it can’t be rigorous and pessimistic I’ve done it all and here’s what it is to the detail That’s going to be glum but come with me Nobody’s going to follow So these are the three parts that we need to articulate how we want to move forward Honor the past, clear and compelling change mandate, and provide a rigorous and optimistic way forward The foundation of all of this is in trust So if we look at all human interactions, the vast majority of them do not make progress So we have loads of interactions that made us go forwards and backwards, forwards and backwards If you look at the subset of human interactions that actually propelled forward, that have progress, vast majority of them are on a foundation of trust So the greatest thing we think you can do to set other people up for success, is to build a trusting relationship with them Best thing we can do to set an organization up for success, set a country, the community up for success is to build trust The same lessons apply to building it as to rebuilding it Here is where the great breakthrough came in the study of trust When we understood that trust has three opponent parts Each one of the component parts is deeply actionable but actionable in a very different way So we need to have a very accurate diagnosis and then bring out the different prescriptions to solve it But there there’s no such thing as, oh, here’s what I did to build trust over here, let me try it over here The chance that it’s the same underlying diagnosis is slim So what we want to do is get to what’s really getting in the way Here’s the good news Research shows us that there’s only three things that are ever going to get in the way And we have tested this with over 100,000 people with thousands of organizations We call it a trust triangle because there’s only three things We look forward to there being a trust quadrant, we just haven’t found a fourth thing So there are three things that can get in the way of trust You are less likely to trust me if you doubt that it’s the real me speaking to you If you sense I’m saying something that I don’t believe, say my boss told me something asked me to communicate it to others, but I don’t believe it Everyone will be able to sniff out that I’m not being authentic in a second The cost is trust I could be as authentic as you like, but if I am not rigorous and transparent about logic, you’re not going to trust Then the real me with awesome logic But I don’t reveal that I’m in it for you, I’m still not going to get trust So trust requires the real me, rigorous logic, and absolutely revealing that I’m in it for you And here’s the important part that we have learned Whether or not you trust me is my obligation I have to earn your trust Whether or not I trust you is your obligation When you don’t trust me, I can always trace it back to one of these three things So here’s an exercise I invite everyone on the call to do And if it’s really late at night, you could just imagine doing it For those of you that are in a more modest time zone, draw a triangle The top of the triangle put an A, bottom left an L, bottom right an E I going to ask you two really hard questions about this Well, two questions, one really hard The first question is, put in your mind’s eye a recent time where you couldn’t earn as much trust as you wanted And let’s call the person who didn’t trust you, your skeptic And now ask yourself with that example in mind, did your skeptic doubt? Did they not trust you because they doubted it was the real you? Did they not trust you because they doubted your logic? Or did they not trust you because they doubted your empathy? For whichever one it is, put an underline underneath the A, the L, or the E Now I’m going to ask you a series of which one of these three, authenticity, logic, and empathy, is just super easily accessible to you Even those of you at times zones that are not hospitable, you have access to this This is what we call our anchor I’ve shown you my personal trust diagnostic right here When I’m trusting, people have faith in the real me, my logic, and my empathy When I’m not trusted, chances are it’s going to be that my empathy is what people question They’re going to question whether or not I was in it for them Most frequently comes out for me with impatience Now when I hear– She said it Yeah Now what is rarely wobbling for me, and we call it a wobble

because it’s totally temporary state that we’re going to all be able to overcome by the time this hour is over What we call our anchor, the one that is easily accessible is this one we have such a more permanent grip on And for me, that’s logic The logic is how I think I hold onto the logic even when it’s inappropriate I still go back to the logic So this is my trust diagnostic Everyone should have one of these So now what I’d like us to do is learn how to overcome every wobble But the reason we wanted you to know your anchor is, please be proactive from a position of your anchor to help other people Like if I’m great on logic, I should seek out people who need help on logic and help them If I’m an empathy wobbler, I should not seek out people who are also empathy wobblers and help them It sounds like a small point It actually could help a lot So how do we overcome each of these wobbles? And then we’ll open it up And feel free to open it up at any point OK So I’m going to go in the sequence that is by far the easiest So the easiest wobble to overcome is logic It’s like this There are two ways that a logic wobble shows up One, I have really good logic but I am somehow losing you in the communication Corporate style problem I’ll do that first The other form of a logic level is, I don’t very good logic And I am communicating that perfectly effectively That’s a substance problem These are very different solves I’m going to solve the style problem first and then the substance So here’s the style problem If you consider that there are two ways to communicate in the world The first one is when you take us on a journey And this journey has lovely twists and turns and you tell us the qualifications you have for why you’re talking and maybe the dramatic arc And then you ultimately get to the point And it’s just a delicious way to tell a story That’s one way to communicate The problem is, in the hands of a logic wobbler, you can lose us at every turn We could probably lose ourselves at many of these turns So if you have a logic wobble storytelling, which is a beautiful way to communicate, is super dangerous Instead, we want to introduce you to an alternate way of communicating Which is, start with your point or if that’s culturally too abrupt, start with the scaffolding of your point And then give the supporting evidence Now here are some advantages of the second way of communicating First, and I don’t know if this has ever happened to anyone on this call But if you’ve ever been interrupted before you’re done speaking When you’re in the middle of a story nobody has any idea what you were talking But if you’ve already made your point, we do Second For those of us that have made a point in a meeting, and then someone else makes the exact same point and they get credit for it instead of us This is like an internationally infuriating experience At least half the time that’s a self-inflicted wound At least half the time we took people on a journey and lost everyone along the way Except the smart, observant thief in the room Except for that thief that’s in every room And there’s a totally observant thief in every room that is just waiting for unclaimed awesome ideas And when they see we lost everyone and we made a point, they snatch our point and begin their comments with that point They’re showing us what we should do They flipped our triangle We should do it ourselves So if we have a logic wobble and we do that with triangles down, we say flip the triangles off If you have a logic wobble, it’s time to wrap it up We encourage you to bring this home to your relationships at home We have found that many partnerships have one person that really could benefit from this And the other person that would really have a lot more free flowing love if they did And that might be a cause of tension that takes it all away Just like a super clear hand signal of love We’re proud to say that we’ve saved marriages with just this little hand sign Yeah Saves years of therapy and keeps marriages intact That’s the style part of logic The substance part of logic, you’d think is much harder In fact, it’s not So substance part of logic is, this square represents everything I know well And now I’m going to use a circle

to represent that which I talk about As long as what I talk about is within what I know well, I will not have a substance problem The only time a logic substance problem comes out is when, this is what I know well, but I talk about more than that This is where the substance problems are Here’s where the really challenging part of this is People don’t just start doubting us on the edges They actually start doubting everything we said So if we lose someone on a small point, they start questioning our judgment on everything So the solution is, if you want to talk about more, and we want you to talk about more, build up your squares Learn more and then talk about it You can talk about as much as you want But just make sure you learn more about it And you know when we’re most often seduced to talking about more than what we know? People ask us questions And that’s when we have an angel-devil, angel-devil Angel, I’ll answer the questions within my knowledge Devil, I should know the answer to that Particularly, I’ve just been promoted, let me wing it Totally resonates Winging it destroys more trust than almost anything else So there’s a great phrase, think outside the box Don’t talk outside the box It’s like the prescription here OK So those are the two logic ways They work instantaneously If they don’t work for you, contact us on Twitter, on LinkedIn We will help customize the solution for you But we have seen this work for everyone Let’s go to empathy And now we have 10 minutes left So I’ve Got to go really fast All right You got this OK I got this So empathy The time we can see the presence and absence of empathy most visibly and most often is in a meeting So if we observe a meeting, we can see who is an empathy anchor and who has an empathy wobbler And it’s not that we have special glasses All of us can see it So that’s the first thing So we’re going to show your meeting because that’s the Petri dish for which this shows up we’re also going to give you a demographic The smartest people in any room tend to be empathy wobblers So a super smart person in a meeting, a super smart empathy wobbler Let’s take a look at what their engagement is like in a meeting So I have a super smart empathy wobbler And their engagement in a meeting is go a super high And it peaks really early And it peaks when our dear protagonist gets it And then imagine what happens after our super smart empathy wobbler gets the point of the meeting Then their engagement plummets and flat lines until the meeting mercifully comes to an end And this is agony for our super smart empathy wobbler It really is And imagine having to do this in meeting after meeting after meeting Your days and weeks are filled with agony That’s how it feels from your perspective Now let’s imagine how others experience you So think about, what do you do when you’re in agony? And what we often do is, we present the international symbol for agony Which is we show people the top of our head Pick up our phones That is the international signal for I’m in agony I show you the top of my head When you do that, and we understand, you’re multitasking because you’re in agony But when you do that, if we think about the acronym for the agony of the super smart, this is how you appear to others Which is, when you show the top of your head, we are all, what we’re doing is not trusting you because nobody is wondering When you show us the top of your head we’re not wondering, is this about you or about us It’s always about you And remember, if it’s not if you show that it’s about you, holy cow, are we not going to trust you So instead, imagine that we had a magic potion and we could inject empathy into our super smart empathy wobbler This is our super smart empathy anchor now They get it just as quickly Empathy does not make us less smart But then, our engagement raises until we all get it Our engagement stays there, doesn’t go away after I get it, but it’s until the last among us gets it And we say super engage Maybe the greatest clinician of empathy is its simplest definition

Because we go from I to we And here is the prize inside when we get good at this We can pull forward the end of the meeting by about half If we help everyone in the meeting get it, we can end the meetings early And if you’re wondering how much wasted time is there in your meetings, look at all the parallel playing that’s going on when we’re showing each other the tops of our head You can pull all of that out We get to decisions quicker, they don’t have to be re-litigate it as much, we get the higher quality So here’s the way to think the shorthand for empathy When you’re in the presence of others, be present And if you don’t have it within you to be present to the needs of others, be in their absence But when you’re present in the needs of others, when you are oxygenated, when you have put the oxygen mask on yourself, when you are around others, your job is to put the oxygen mask on them OK That’s empathy Let’s go from I to we And now, in two minutes, authenticity And authenticity, by far, is the hardest wobble to overcome And here’s why Logic, I can, with circles and squares and triangles, I can make a lot of progress on my own With empathy I just got to think of others I have to go from I to we I think I can do that on my own too Authenticity is co-produced by other people that are in the room That is we all set the conditions for the authenticity of others to show up So my authenticity, I can do a lot But the other people in the room can also contribute So the best way to see the presence and absence of authenticity in a team The smallest team for which this is present is a three person team So this circle is the contribution of the first person on a team Going to use nine circles total This is the contribution of the second person on that team, and the contribution of the third person We would call this a similar team Positives and negatives with all three are similar I’m now going to contrast this team to a team when there is difference among us Because this is when authenticity– when we’re all similar, authenticity is not an issue Authenticity becomes an issue when there’s difference among us So here’s the first person on our team of difference The second person, some in common, some different And the third person, some in common and some different If we do everything we know about bringing out the best practices in a similar team, this is the contribution we can get If we take those exact same best practices and apply those to the team of difference and add no formal practice to account for the fact that there is difference among us, but instead rely on our good intentions, and rely on our individual instincts, sadly the contribution of the team of difference is much less And this is like super duper sad But here’s where it becomes super duper thrilling It’s just to clarify– Yes, please The common information aspect flashed briefly but, do you want to describe that briefly? Yeah It’s tough to understand So the common information effect which has been studied for decades show that as a human species, we tend to search for the common ground If we are not perturbed, if we rely on our natural instincts when we’re in a group of people that are different than us, watch what happens We seek what’s in common That’s kind of the least interesting thing about us What we want to do to get creativity and innovation, to get all of this awesomeness is, we want to seek different We want to see uniqueness And if we can seek the uniqueness, that’s when teams of different trump teams that are similar to one another So we often hear the phrase diversity and inclusion Inclusion and diversity is the way that we would prefer to say it If you are inclusive, diversity will follow But you can be diverse and you’re not inclusive and it’s actually not very good for the people, that’s no way to live, to only have a teeny portion of yourself show up And it’s also not awesome for the team So this diagram gives the business imperative for difference Look at how much more we get to contribute So it gives the moral imperative We want all of people to show up, which means we want to be able to celebrate the uniqueness of every single person So if I’m on a team that’s diverse but not inclusive, I live in a sad reality on the left Yes Yes And when you’re in a team that’s inclusive and different, and that’s the Mickey mouse ears, then you get to trump everyone else So last slide and then we’ll open it up How can you be inclusive? It turns out that inclusion is a four step progressive process Step one, regardless of the difference that any one of us represents, we have to feel safe physically and emotionally Now here’s the thing I can make myself feel 50% of it I can make myself feel physically and emotionally safe

Other people in the room contribute to whether or not I feel safe So my job is to help myself but also to help others Once I feel safe, regardless of any difference I bring to the table, do I feel welcomed? And we all contribute to whether or not someone else feels welcome And then it gets super exciting Now am I celebrated for my unique perspective? Not celebrated for what’s in common Celebrated for my unique perspective And that’s when inclusion starts taking a magical turn And then the word we use, which I don’t think we’re done with this word, I think it’s a work in process work of cherished Which is, what, that means it’s not just when I’m in Deb’s presence that I feel celebrated for my uniqueness, but every room I go into I feel celebrated for my uniqueness I feel cherished That’s celebrated at scale really It’s celebrated it at scale And my Mickey mouse ears start to happen in celebrated and cherished In celebrated and cherished And so here is our inclusion dial and the last thing we’ll say about it is, when you move one group up the inclusion dial, it’s too low of a bar that we’re allowed to move another group down the inclusion dial It’s not sustainable So we have to be clever enough when we lose one group and one individual up the inclusion dial, we also have to move other groups up the inclusion dial And that’s where we are 4:33, we got there Well done, well done And of course, I blew it and forgot to say if you want to put something in chat while we’re talking, we do that But then people started putting it in But while we have a few more questions loading, let me ask you know as I mentioned, when we talk about this books at Baker, and this book as an artifact and how it’s put together because it is such a message and we’re giving this artifact, this nugget I’m always interested in the artifact And when I was looking at this as an artifact, you have some incredible testimonials, endorsements from a wide, wide range of people And so I wondered, is there a particular endorsement or a particular comment that you’ve had from people that you think unleashes the book for potential readers? Yeah I mean we love the quote you started with And we certainly set out to write the definitive guide to leadership today It is a very high bar And that Arianna Huffington, who has been in the trenches, in bringing so many organizations and ideas to life To have her reflect that mission back to us, was super gratifying You know at some point, Jane Morgan, who’s had an incredible career and continues to have one, she made the point in one of our endorsements that it’s a lot of what’s in the book, it takes people years and sometimes decades to develop And then also it speaks to the mission of the project which is that we were trying to condense what we have certainly learned over years and decades into a really accessible artifact To really shorten that development time for our readers Yeah, you’re right In fact several of the questions have been about the age of the person I’m a young person on a team, I’m younger than other people, I may not be seen as knowledgeable, or you know my square is very small compared to others So do you have advice for people on that scale as well as the older, I’ve been around too long, I’ve got baggage, I’ve got this, I’ve got that So can you talked to us about either end of that age Yeah So I’ll do the young one first which is, whatever your square is, talk about that And it’s great to have squares that are outside of other people’s squares So go for distinction So here’s things that millennials know They’re certainly more current about technology, they’re more current about what millennials know than anyone else So form your squares in a strategic way Learn about things that are different than the knowledge base that others have so that people really want to know it And have the discipline to not overstate I think that’s– Yeah, I’ve done that And then on the side of people that have been around for a long time, acknowledge that some of your squares needn’t be reiterated again So it’s not like we should talk about everything we know And so some of your squares just are like great for fireside chats But maybe leave room in the conversation for new knowledge from others Is that a kind enough way to say it? Yeah Yeah, I think

You know the Buddhist principle of beginner’s mind, Yeah It gets harder as we get older But I think it remains super powerful I guess the other thing I would offer is to challenge the story that our voices are somehow less legitimate for some reason As human beings we’re very good at coming up with reasons why we shouldn’t fully inhabit our power Whether we’re too old, or too young, or we’re too different And as Frances said, I think creating a space for authenticity relies a lot on the people around you But at least 50% is your own decision to show up fully in a space we would argue And so I would just push back on the story as a starting place And is that true? Is it really true that because of your age you are somehow less legitimate in your space? And what do you think, I mean you started writing this book a year plus ago So nothing today was quite the same then Yeah Now that we are in this world of Zoom or of what people are calling social distancing instead of physical distancing, which I have such a problem with because I don’t want people to be socially distant No, no, no I want them to be physically distant but not socially distant So when we’ve got language like that and we’ve got this screen in front of us, how has that changed? Has that changed your thinking about your trust triangle? Or– You know it’s the same three things come up Authenticity, empathy, and logic But they can come up in different ways So for example, my expression of empathy towards you could be, I get where you are and I want to help informally develop you The first thing to go when we do everything online is informal development Because everything’s formal I don’t get to see you by the water cooler anymore So what I would say is we want to make time and space for interactions where silence is OK Because that’s when the informal development happens And so great to have all of our high test meetings but then let’s have some meetings where it’s just OK for silence And so we have two young sons the best conversations we have is when we’re walking in silence and they get to bring up what’s on their mind The same thing is true about informal development We have to leave room for silence so that we can find out what’s on people’s mind And that will mostly help us on the empathy side Yeah I think a related question is, when you see potential, thinking about you walking with your sons and waiting for them, when you see potential in others and you’re helping to unleash that, how do you encourage them? Again, are you really straightforward and say, listen I got something we’ve got to talk about? Or– Oh, it’s more subtle So we’ll do a bunch of ways But one is, interact with the best version of people and be startled at how quickly they become it Yeah That’s our favorite shorthand Interact with the person that you know they can become If we can only give one piece of leadership advice– People will scramble to become that person Really? So don’t interact with the old two dimensional caricature you have of them But interact with the awesome, honorable, empathy inducing, authenticity laden logic, and they’ll become that person Yeah In the book, we spend a whole chapter on this idea that we call love Not coincidentally And we really go deep on the idea of what are the conditions that you can create for another human being in order that they thrive consistently And in our experience, what we’ve observed is, if you set high standards and you reveal deep devotion simultaneously, it is the most reliable pathway Yeah And one piece of getting there is also catching people in the act of behaving exactly like you want them to behave And celebrating that lavishly when they do Anne does that with me a lot I like the lavish part Yeah But I learned a great deal that way Yeah But I mean, to your credit, Frances is great for asking for that kind of feedback It’s one of the things I’ve learned from you is, I’ll come in with some feedback on something I want you to improve and you say start with some– probably what I’m doing great Probably what was great Yeah I will learn so much faster from that And as do most humans, most human beings

I love that That’s the notion of appreciative inquiry, that you think what’s working well and let’s build on that, rather than– And we’ll do it more often What are you screwing up all the time? What do we stop doing? So yeah It’s again, it’s shifting this triangle Yeah Bobby on the chart just labeled our shortening for that, which is Scooby snacks And it’s our favorite thing in the world It is creepy Scooby snacks It is a reference that is going to age itself out No, there’s a new movie coming out A Scooby-Doo– Yes It is a reference to the cartoon character, Scooby–Doo For those of you who need some explanations New movie coming out A whole new generation of Scooby snacks Another question that I think, and again as an executive director, a leader, I’m also really interested in is, how can my staff help me be a better leader? All leaders aren’t going to come in the room at the top of their game all of the time So while leaders help their staff or their people they’re working with How do the people they’re working with help the leader? Yeah If we’re giving advice to you, we want to have you focused on how you can help others If we’re giving advice to your team, we want to give them advice to how to help others and that’s including people that are above them, peers to them, or below them But for you, we want you to think about how to help set the condition for others to thrive Yeah Makes good sense Another one, how to you deal with a sensitive team member who resents being coached? They said corrected but I’m assuming that corrected, coached might– Because people, know what it’s like You have to deal with people all the time and we have so many different– So here’s the thing If I give you feedback, I was helpful I was effective if you got better I was ineffective if you got worse So what this person is saying is that, when they give someone feedback, they get they’re neutral or they get worse So I would say the way in which you are coaching them is the problem So pivot Try another one There’s no such thing as, oh well, I gave them good feedback and they were sensitive No You were ineffective in giving them feedback because it resulted in their being sensitive We have to give feedback that is in the context of other people So pivot and try again Pivot and try again And you know you’re done when other people get better The greatest accelerant we have at our discretion is feedback because that was what will help people improve And we get immediate feedback on our feedback Did the person get better? So if you have a sensitive person, what you have is a report card that you are not yet effective at coaching Yeah I know there’s– A great place to start is sincere, specific praise And this person may be the exception to that rule which is pretty universal But most people respond very well to sincere, specific praise Nobody is sensitive to sincere and specific praise And in a lot of cultures, in fact, most cultures in our experience, we spend a lot of time in Silicon Valley, It’s particularly true there That is the exception rather than the norm People are walking around giving all of this constructive advice thinking and then somehow being like I told them Well at least I told them As if that is meaningful in any way, shape, or form I told them, I don’t care Did they get better? I care And you’re fast this path towards that is sincere and specific praise Yeah Yeah There is also another– –Karina So there is a woman named Karina Gracina who has had her hand raised for a while Oh and I haven’t been looking at raising hands I’ve just been– see I’m not a– [INTERPOSING VOICES] I actually, I really want to know a Karina has to say I really do too She has tried very often I’ve been looking at her name since the beginning I cannot wait Well If you’re from Torino we would love to So I have to ask our technical people Can you unmute Karina so she can ask her question? Am I getting a thumbs up from that? Give me one second I’m going to [INAUDIBLE] talk Karina is coming on right now Just ignore that man behind the curtain Karina has been so patient Thank you, Karina She just unmuted herself She just needs to unmute herself OK Karina can you, in the lower left hand corner, can you unmute your mic? Will try that– Hi Hi Oh hi Yeah Sorry, I don’t know why I had my hand raised So Oh we the floor is yours Karina Any question? No I just love it I always have questions So I was wondering, when you were talking about feedback and just giving feedback is not enough

What would you suggest we could do to someone who doesn’t like feedback Yeah So change the way you think about feedback If we’re giving people like, if I say Karina, that was a super helpful comment Because you just asked a question that’s on the minds of others So thank you very much for doing that It’s going to be rare that you’re not going to like that I just said that And I was specific enough So you know to do it repeatedly and everyone else who watch knows to do it So if I’m sincere and specific, I have a chance of having everyone improve There is like nobody that doesn’t want that The challenge is, what we people don’t want is ineffective feedback And we’re giving people ineffective feedback all the time And you know what’s ineffective? Don’t ever give you sincere and specific praise and I just come in and I say, you should do this differently Do this differently Do this differently So people will be like, oh, I gave feedback No, you didn’t You didn’t give anything You gave destructive feedback Not constructive feedback And if you’re looking to go deeper on this, a fantastic thinker and scholar is Carol Dweck, who started out in the parenting space and a lot of her work has been adopted more broadly She’s a favorite of the CEO of Microsoft, Satya Nadella He used a lot of her ideas to revolutionize the culture at Microsoft She’s written probably 10 books at this point But it’s a lot about how do you help somebody grow and how do you create what she calls a growth mindset in the people around you And for a lot of people who are resistant to traditional feedback, setting the bar at the growth mindset can be a powerful tidbit for you as their manager And if you have a chance to be in her presence, take it I think she’s in her early 70s, in great health But don’t let the opportunity pass by She’s extraordinary Extraordinary Thank you so much Thanks Thanks for raising your hand whether you were or not That’s perfect I love that There’s a question here, when you think about the triangle and you’ve got an equilateral triangle so I’m assuming that, that was purposeful to say that these have similar parts The question from Henrik is, if an organizational culture values logic much more than authenticity and empathy, how do you guide them to value the balance of the three? Yeah Is this like you know organizations have personalities of their as much as an individual They do Totally How [INAUDIBLE] change that culture? Yeah To balance those three So in general, if you think about authenticity and empathy as being more emotional and logic being more logical So when you have emotion and logic Here’s what we have found If someone has a logical problem, there’s no amount of emotional description that’s going to help overcome it And if someone has an emotional problem, there’s no amount of logical description that’s going to overcome it So we need to at least be ambidextrous So if we only have logic thinkers, and we only have people that want to do logic, we’re going to get thumped by two dimensional organizations We just are So I think we have to, not only make room for, but then also create the conditions of first start thinking about two dimensional and then start thinking of it as three dimensional But difference is why we leveraging and leading difference Go back to those nine circles If you only have logic, you’re the homogeneous team in the middle You’re going to get thumped Yeah I think it’s important to get in touch with the cost– That’s a great way to do it –of wobbling on those other dimensions So for example, Frances went very deep on the leadership crisis at Uber a couple years ago We did really stumble then And if you use the trial to diagnose what was happening at Uber at the scale of the organization, the company was essentially wobbling like crazy on empathy with most of its stakeholders So that was a culture that really valued logic But the breakdown in empathy had enormous costs for everyone For drivers, for employees, for regulators, and it threatens the existence of the entire enterprise When you talk about wobble, and you said that the wobble could be temporary Yes When I think about trust and work with my group, we always talk about trust also means consistency I trust that if I do this that will happen I trust that this one and that will happen Does that ring true in your– It doesn’t for me –about trust? But– Here’s why it doesn’t for me OK Because I find that I like to be in places where we have enormously– that’s Rosie–

Four legged co-worker So I like to be in places where they have radical improvement Radical improvement means we’re going to be different tomorrow than we are today In fact, were going to be a better version of ourselves tomorrow than we are today That’s not consistent So consistency, my fear of being too concerned about consistency, is it puts a low ceiling on our rate of improvement As long as you can square consistency with dramatic improvement– Yeah I’ll be OK OK Because I was thinking about it, you know me or you trust that if you say x to me I’ll say, I understand, I get where you’re coming Instead of another time when I say what the heck is that probably Oh That’s what I meant by it’s consistent behavior You can trust that– That feels to me like authenticity That’s more authenticity It’s one of those issues that would fall into the category of authenticity And also the integrity issues, I do I do what I say I’m going to do– Authenticity –and that’s authenticity There is also question from Helen and it’s something that we’ve also dealt within in our team quite a number times is, a toxic situation Oh yes How long do you deal with a toxic situation if you can’t change it Do you walk? Do you– Yeah So I have a lot to say about this I’ll try to do it very quickly So one is that we should change If there is toxicity and you have control, do it quickly and do it immediately Do it quickly and do it with like great action And it typically means separate Yeah so here’s how– so culture can fix good people behaving badly Culture can fix good people behaving in a way that is experienced as toxic to others Exorcism is needed for bad people behaving in a toxic way Leaders have to make that discernment and separation is the only thing that occurs And so we have to we have an obligation And organizations in general endure toxicity for ways And there’s thinking so much about the people that are doing the behavior like, what is it going to be like for them As opposed to thinking about all the people that have to endure the behavior So I see all the time like, oh, we’ll do an investigation into it and then we make a decision Oh, we decided to have them leave What about all the people that had to endure it along the way? So the first thing is you can’t act too quickly And I say that because organizations tend to act very, very slowly in the presence of it That’s the first thing The second thing is, good people can behave badly I mean Milgram did those experiments, right? Like we know we can set the conditions for good people to behave badly So when we see that let’s set the conditions for good people to behave well Which means, we’re going to re-set the cultural norms, we’re going to reset the meeting dynamics So we have to make an assertation of, is it people that can evolve? And if they can’t evolve in our context, they have to be separated But as a leader, every day we permit toxicity to occur, it’s on the leader’s watch And what if I’m not the one with the power in that situation? So what I would say there is, you have two choices One is, when I say leaders, leaders don’t have to be at the top of the organization, leaders are the ones that set the dynamic So if I’m on a team, and I’m not leading the team and the team has toxic behavior I’m going to try to set the conditions for that toxic behavior to not occur If I do everything I can and I can’t, then, oh my gosh, to Deb’s point, we have one chance on the planet, we should not look back with regret about how long we endured it for ourselves So I say, try super hard And if you can’t make progress, separate But we have seen, when you try super hard, we have seen people evolve at a mesmerizing pace So don’t wait for it to happen in the absence of your action Try and then if that doesn’t work, separate But do the leaders that favor and let them know what’s going on That’s what I would add That really makes that exit counts Susan Fowler, who left Uber and wrote a blog post, arguably started a revolution She did Not just at Uber by the way At companies around the world And she wrote a terrific book If you want inspiration for a dramatic and effective exit Yeah Yeah The exit interview that I’ve, again, as a leader you have to be really brave to talk with somebody But then take that information and do something Yeah And the entirety of the exit interview should be, is there anything you have observed

or experienced that you think I should know? And then to your ode to silence Stop talking to at least 10 Permit silence I always count to 10 silently before I talk It’ll give the other person a chance Good idea Anyway, well speaking of time, we are very drawing near on the hour and I feel like my cheeks are aching because I’ve been smiling My head’s been nodding but I have to tell you that my heart is bursting Because I think you have given us so much to think about in a flood of ideas of how we can bring our triangle And I was so glad it was a wobble and not a waddle I was thinking about that from a turkey perspective But what I really, again, take from the book is your choices and the quote from Toni Morrison in the beginning “Just remember that your real job is if you are free, you need to free somebody else And if you have some power, then your job is to empower somebody else.” I think you’ve given us an incredible framework to think about that and some action that we can take in order to unleash Not just ourselves but everybody that we work with So thank you so much for that And as you well know, it takes a village So I just want to take a second because our co-sponsors Madeleine Meehan from HBS Connects and Julie Devoll from Harvard Business Publishing We have wonderful colleagues in marketing and communications who have been helping us with social media we’ll get all these recordings up Ashley Willims and in particular, Dylan Swain is that man behind the curtain who’s been helping us– Dylan –with the technology Dylan, we need, not being a millennial I need a technician to help [INAUDIBLE] Natasha Carr from your group has just been fabulous And then for my team, Dena Gerdman and Mariah Templeson Shaw As I said, they make the magic happen, and I am so appreciative Our next Books at Baker is October 6 So for all of you who don’t know us and follow us, please have a look Mariah I think has put up the link It’s just me talking about, this one I’m really signing in for too, time smart, how to reclaim your time and live a happier life So I love that one You know people say, could you give me more time? Like, no There’s no more time, time’s finite I can’t So at any rate, I think that all that will be a good one Watch the Books at Baker page A link to the recording will be sent to everybody so that they can watch it if there’s things you’ve missed But I am a woman of my word and Anne made me promise I would let her have the last word So in addition to thanking the two of you and Rosie, where did Rosie– Yeah, Rosie’s lying down right over here She’s at our feet now I would turn it over with my enormous gratitude and thanks for Anne to have the last word Thank you, Deb This is such s pleasure for us to be a part of Most important, I think, Karina asked a terrific question So can we get a book to her to thank her for her great question And I would just want to close with number five on the principles that Frances went through, which is simply begin We wrote this book because and we talked about all the complex jobs, we need more people off the leadership bench and we need all of you, not just part of you, when you show up in the public sphere So thank you for all that you do to advance the mission of this book And we wish you the best of luck And if there’s anything we can do to be helpful to you please don’t hesitate to reach out We’re very easy to find Thank you See you soon, I hope Absolutely OK Anytime It’s our pleasure Thanks again, everybody Thanks so much Thanks, everyone Bye, now