12 Jun 2020 | EcoLabs Centre of Innovation for Energy | Hydrogen for Mobility: Land, Sea and Air

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12 Jun 2020 | EcoLabs Centre of Innovation for Energy | Hydrogen for Mobility: Land, Sea and Air

Ryan Jin: Hi everyone equal weapon, they will begin very soon. We just that audience count into the working Ryan Jin: Group Ryan Jin: Became pricing. So just sit back and relax for the time being Mahesh Kumar: Mute Ryan Jin: Oh, thanks. Thanks so much. Hi, good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us for the equal that webinar series. My name is Ryan and I’m leading the smart cities and future mobility after the collapse center of innovation for energy Ryan Jin: I will be hosting this session because that’s joining established by NYAH Technological University Ryan Jin: And the pricing model and sustainable energy associations boxes aims to Bill and accelerate to tech energy innovation capability is Ryan Jin: To support a nation’s future energy transition this joint initiative aims to have Singapore these energies that are an SMP successfully commercialize as future innovation happens Ryan Jin: By providing them with the fully translational research living test spits innovation programs funding partners and community platform Ryan Jin: As the coffee situation is going on. We are organizing to eclipse webinar series to continue to Englishmen at interaction with our partners, where we invite industry experts to offer insight on respective Ryan Jin: This Webinar Series comprises of five teams Startup Series incisiveness copper series investor series and equal observers ish focusing on the different aspect of the innovation ecosystem Ryan Jin: Today’s session is part of the collapse series where we discussed and exploiters factorial or technology opportunity market entry, as far as support and resources available for startup in Singapore and beyond Ryan Jin: To the webinar titled hydrogen for mobility land, sea and air presented by Dr. Robin, what is the mobility and energy storage Ryan Jin: At ecolab center of innovation for energy in this session, our oven will assess the factor traveling hydrogen and oxygen from market and technological perspective Ryan Jin: Present transcend insert from this perspective and to determine the destructive potential of hydrogen into mobility sector Ryan Jin: Last video suited to a case study of technology roadmap five Trojan pot passes Dr have been established for mobility and energy storage collect Ryan Jin: It works on to diligence Technology Assessment group mapping and scoping for proposals for translation of prototypes to commercially viable product Ryan Jin: Is core competencies in cattle materials for lithium ion batteries which were the subject of his PhD studies and to you in partnership with transmitter Ryan Jin: He has a background in chemical engineering and has previously co founder with plastic to carbon nanotubes upcycling company Ryan Jin: So, towards the end of each session. We have about 10 to 15 minutes for Q amp D. If you have any questions you can keep your questions to a party or raise your hand so that we can add you to find some question to the interaction Ryan Jin: Now, without further ado, I would like to pass the session to talk to Dr. Robin Ryan Jin: Well, Aravind Muthiah: Thanks. I am good morning everyone. It’s good to see a good turnout on a morning here in Singapore and if you’re coming from overseas as well Aravind Muthiah: So as I introduced I’m needing the energy storage and mobility sector with equal labs and the hydrogen roadmap is a is a Aravind Muthiah: Work in progress for us where we are detailing different sectors in the mobile specifically in mobile as a matter of time urban mobility and as well as transport and the work I will be presenting today is part of that sort of roadmap that we are Aravind Muthiah: So I can probably stop sharing my screen just Aravind Muthiah: Just to confirm is the screen visible any issues

Ryan Jin: Is okay Aravind Muthiah: All right. Okay Aravind Muthiah: So yeah, do you focus today will be on hydrogen for mobility and when I talked about mobility Aravind Muthiah: We’re covering three aspects here maritime aviation, as well as land transport and the, the objective of this webinar is the Aravind Muthiah: First provide an understanding of what are the key drivers here and why people are going for a hydrogen economy and what are the trends in the in this hydrogen economy that that have happened so far. Why is hydrogen so competitive Aravind Muthiah: Then we dive into one of the core aspects of Aravind Muthiah: Realizing this sort of hydrogen economy for transport Momo fuel cells and you find a try to see whether it is this really hype, or is there a truth or value to what we see in terms of users Aravind Muthiah: And that the hydrogen economy and going forward. Finally I’ve gone through it with a case study on public transport, particularly buses, which we have noticed, to be Aravind Muthiah: More not adopting a lot of the hydrogen related Aravind Muthiah: So the first Aravind Muthiah: Point we would like to address is the drivers. What are the key drivers for a hydrogen economy Aravind Muthiah: There are many two of them. And it’s nothing more complicated. The first is push towards lower carbon emissions Aravind Muthiah: We have only 10 years remaining to achieve the 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming goal and the second is the following costs of renewable and hybrid. This is mainly in terms of sort out Vb, as well as battery technologies Aravind Muthiah: Now the key indicators which I’m sure that there is a push towards hydrogen economy is first the national roadmaps that have been put out Aravind Muthiah: Now 19 of them. I would rather than to them a bit later. I don’t suppose the industrial answers which have been found and consolidation in the industry from the previous hydrogen fuel cell Aravind Muthiah: Types that Aravind Muthiah: Are now more measured approach to deploying this fuel cell technology and hyperventilating Aravind Muthiah: So many are looking at emissions. One of the key Aravind Muthiah: Areas that emits a lot is, transport and we need to understand where the different sort of emissions. Come on. I’m for the transport second so broadly the transport transportation sector can be divided into road transport as well as non road Aravind Muthiah: Road consists of your buses by heavy trucks like flux and Aravind Muthiah: Change as a beta passenger the subdivisions ended 100 non road. We have three major aspects. One is marine air and rail falls under other Aravind Muthiah: So as you can see here the key three major forms of transport which use a lot of energy and therefore I met a lot of carbon is road primarily Marina and add on equal footing and really explain to them. So the focus here today is not so much on rail and it’s only primarily in the first Aravind Muthiah: The investment trends for this hydrogen sector or have been quite that I think over the past few years. As you can see, it could get on to 50 million, the third quarter of 2019, this was a big influx of cash from CNN industrial which was looking to support Aravind Muthiah: The company called Nicola, which makes a heavy duty truck parts of our users and they have a unique business model Aravind Muthiah: Of leasing out there. Trump’s to their customers and basically I need as a service that we’re maintaining and finding the vehicle itself Aravind Muthiah: So that was a huge cash injection of over 250 million by that particular company see a niche industry, which is actually based, which is what has caused the spike. But apart from that, there are a number of other players hydrogen refuel accelerator is quite popular Aravind Muthiah: Last longer they’re funded around six companies this sector and we have new capital within our own ranks, who are also looking to fund hydrogen related to pick Aravind Muthiah: A number of these companies about purchase the energy industry is corporate comments which I from China is also perfect and we have our liquid, a major hydrogen producer

Aravind Muthiah: The VC. I’m also coming from the corporate side to fund a lot of these efforts by Monday we see it. We think this is because of the huge capital involved and lot of integration required to work with big players Aravind Muthiah: In terms of the trends of policy, there have been 19 countries that have released roadmap so far and it is still counting Aravind Muthiah: Now, the focus of the roadmaps has been Aravind Muthiah: Classified here in this table and it spans and multitude of areas right from production go industrial processes or electricity generation household eating and of course transport or even export. Now what is most what stands out in this table is across all the countries, the key Aravind Muthiah: The key priority has been to include transport as part of their roadmap and this predominant focus is what makes the fuels of a extremely critical technology to realizing the hydrogen economy, the focus so much is not on generation Aravind Muthiah: Primarily because hydrogen can be obtained through other more industrial Aravind Muthiah: feedstock or other sorts of processes. But as you can see, the key focus has been on transport and that is in line with what we would like to present it Aravind Muthiah: In terms of Payton’s over the last five years Aravind Muthiah: There have been a number of companies which are Aravind Muthiah: Provided a lot of technologies under the fuel cell tag on 40,000 of the expected results or obtain but Aravind Muthiah: That the top six of these patents were filed primarily by Japanese this the companies. They are they are now Honda and Nippon and also Chinese university. So, surprisingly, there was not a lot of Chinese companies and Aravind Muthiah: Showcasing and ensuring that the Chinese universities are leading the effort in fuel cell innovation and translation that is of course 1 billion company as well Aravind Muthiah: So now we dive into each particular sector and try to understand the trends that are governing them so far Aravind Muthiah: So first is the aviation sector here by far Aravind Muthiah: The adoption seems to be the least mainly because of a lot of regulations and trials to be done before these this hydrogen can be adopted Aravind Muthiah: So that is a roadmap for 2030 provided by hydrogen noodle and the state of the art in aviation related technologies is mainly on drones or us, but this has not yet Aravind Muthiah: Been taken off in a big way more mainly because of certain numbers and on the cost of hiring, which I’ll get into a bit later Aravind Muthiah: What you’re seeing, though, is its viability for hydrogen, but for liability for aviation on a larger scale passenger links, but Aravind Muthiah: Since the regulations are not required to be in place the timeline for realizing that is quite long. So we have three major timelines here from 2023 to 25 2025 and 2015 the main demonstrations will take place. What’s this 2030 PM, which is when we also expect to see a lot of urban mobility Aravind Muthiah: related technologies to be deployed Aravind Muthiah: Now, Aravind Muthiah: One of the key numbers to note here is Aravind Muthiah: The period of 2023 to 2025, the expectation is to drop hydrogen costs Aravind Muthiah: Around $1,500 USD per kilowatt. This is the fuel cell phones. That is one of the key requirements in terms of realizing this roadmap for aviation Aravind Muthiah: On the matter of time side there is a lot more Aravind Muthiah: Impact so Aravind Muthiah: The first day will be happier Aravind Muthiah: shows the difference between Aravind Muthiah: internal combustion engines fuel cells as well as other forms of powering a book Aravind Muthiah: Now today, the key technology that is viable is ammonia

Aravind Muthiah: The best the process in terms of low carbon is ammonia forbidden ice engine Aravind Muthiah: However, energy is the most preferred right now along the Aravind Muthiah: BLS and Aravind Muthiah: Now as we go along down. That’s where fuel cells that’s playing a major role. And as you can see here the key cost for to sell Aravind Muthiah: Our books is the cost of delivering hydrogen or ammonia, whichever form the fuel, isn’t it takes up at least 50% of the total cost of ownership when planning that particular book Aravind Muthiah: And that is one of the key areas where if there is a purpose to drive down the prices that would be a greater impact Aravind Muthiah: In terms of the storage of hydrogen itself for fuel cells foods are powered, what’s the percentage is quite low. So that is not a critical driver in terms of a high cost. Similarly, when it comes to the fuel so badly occupies less than 5% Aravind Muthiah: Of the entire plus five or 10% so the key driver to making these sort of boats viable Aravind Muthiah: Is to drive down the cost of delivering hydrogen or money Aravind Muthiah: Now these books like the vehicles can be classified into multiple classes Aravind Muthiah: That are four of them. The first is small urban fairies. Second is inland vessels or berries and chartreuse third is large roses in the for Aravind Muthiah: The third is offshore ships. Sorry. And the fourth is large presence. Now they are classified and done the fuel cells for each one of these applications and the fewer for each of these application Aravind Muthiah: Is based on the sort of range that the the vehicle operates and on in terms of autonomy. So is it less than a day or over multiple days and in terms of power, how, how much power is required to carry probably a heavier load Aravind Muthiah: Versus a lighter load Aravind Muthiah: Now, Aravind Muthiah: What we have seen is for the classes, one and two Aravind Muthiah: Hydrogen in its PR firm. So either liquefied hydrogen are pressurized hydrogen can be used to power, but these sort of system Aravind Muthiah: Mainly because the volume of hydrogen required to our larger systems takes up a lot of space on the board. So they are more viable for shorter shorter span system Aravind Muthiah: In addition, and then G and C and D are viable fields Aravind Muthiah: In the case of Aravind Muthiah: The case of large ships or auto ships, where there’s high autonomy as well as I probably Aravind Muthiah: Met them or ammonia seem to be the most preferred solutions Aravind Muthiah: And I get LNG RC and you can also be used to power these books. An example of such a board Aravind Muthiah: Quite recently was by this book by company or steam and then the. As you can see there are two types of tanks Aravind Muthiah: Placed into the system here and Aravind Muthiah: The furniture fuel cell powered board with a diesel genset on board to provide backup Aravind Muthiah: Now when it comes to cost for maritime transport there the viability. Right now it seems to be on the smaller ships. So the first day bush is the regional very Aravind Muthiah: Which covers around 15 kilometers every round trip and the second type of work that we can know that make it viable for viewers as upfront is the robots, but it’s a slightly larger very Aravind Muthiah: Alone and roller also passengers passengers as well as vehicles and the round trip is our 20 kilometres. You can see the Rangers here are quite short and Aravind Muthiah: Quick refueling times Aravind Muthiah: So for each one of these books. There are three parts here Aravind Muthiah: The bottom grey provides the current cost in terms of diesel Aravind Muthiah: Before lot in blue, dark blue provides the fuel cell cars over time and the light law provides the battery Aravind Muthiah: So if you look at the original setting the crossover point between battery visuals and hydrogen vehicles happens that are under 2025 to 2013

Aravind Muthiah: So this is Nikki be have to watch out for. So it would happen in the next not in the early part of the next ticket but the digital part of the next next decade Aravind Muthiah: But it takes another five years or so, for it to become far more work when compared to a diesel as a few Aravind Muthiah: So this store this part is mainly on most of total cost of ownership. It’s a USD per kilometer of the vehicle plane and Aravind Muthiah: One of the key things to notice is also how the prices of the few hours of operation is split. So there are four parts to it Aravind Muthiah: Firstly, have those fuel cell power train itself, which is the primary CapEx, then you have other CapEx in the form of the ships and other inverters maybe battery systems Aravind Muthiah: And mortars and then Aravind Muthiah: The third part is the fuel costs itself when operating. And the last part is maintenance and other operational things. Let’s dig into four parts Aravind Muthiah: And as you can see the fuels that are part is just only 1% of the total plus. So, any changes here will have a negligible impact on the on Aravind Muthiah: Advancing the scope to make it better than battery weapons. These the poor requirements is on new ship design and reducing the cost of other components which go into the people Aravind Muthiah: In the case of robots as well. You have a similar trend, you have the split up there was one person for power train and 44%. Okay, thanks. So again, if the focus is on the other Aravind Muthiah: Additional equipment which complement the power train. That’s where the cost reduction can happen. And that is a good place for any startup to focus its efforts. So unlike the case of the original very the rope x Aravind Muthiah: Makes the battery powered board as well as the hydrogen powered book viable around 2030 Aravind Muthiah: Both of them Aravind Muthiah: On board at that point and they pretty much stay on course 24. This is mainly is this many shows that the hydrogen fuel powered book is more effective in shorter range segments when competitive battery electric vehicles Aravind Muthiah: So that concludes the matter time sector. Now I’ll move into the road transport sector, which is the bulk of the presentation so far Aravind Muthiah: Just to recap what we have Aravind Muthiah: Been through of it before. There are number of transports segments, you have ships chains Aravind Muthiah: Matter of time and then you have the land transport systems. This chart here shows you the potential at which each of these potential point in the future and Aravind Muthiah: When these systems that becoming completely viable in terms of commercial deployment so far ships and airplanes. It seems 2013 and beyond, is the is the timeline we’re looking at, but as I just showed earlier for smaller ships, we’re looking at 2025 Aravind Muthiah: dumbs of road transport, which is what we will get into now it’s the changes will happen in the next decade. And it comes to picking us right from focus for Aravind Muthiah: Heavy Duty applications and city buses and a host of other vehicles, ending with smaller mini buses in 2020 so this decade would be a decade of change Aravind Muthiah: On a decade where hydrogen finally becomes viable for your transcript Aravind Muthiah: So when we looked at road transport Aravind Muthiah: That are mainly three basic types of vehicles out there today the fuel cell vehicle FC the Battery Electric Vehicle. Which is invoked now and then the diesel engine or gasoline powered vehicle Aravind Muthiah: So, Aravind Muthiah: Don’t leave the diesel powered vehicles of those are the most have the lowest cost of total, total cost of ownership, while the battery makers are almost reaching on fire due to subsidies and a few other increase utilization of infrastructure Aravind Muthiah: However, as we go into the longer term fuel cell and battery are expected to lower down and become much cheaper than these. When we say long term we’re looking at Aravind Muthiah: Within the next 10 years

Aravind Muthiah: Similarly, when we’re looking at Aravind Muthiah: We’re looking at vehicles for trucks. So this is for the chart on the left is for passenger vehicles. The chat when they’re light or Aravind Muthiah: Heavy duty trucks, the viability of the battery electric vehicles is slightly more expensive. As you can see you in the long term. Fuel Cell Vehicles start becoming more viable Aravind Muthiah: Let’s go a bit more into detail on these numbers and see how it affects Aravind Muthiah: The competitiveness of hydrogen is split Aravind Muthiah: I mean, there are two main drivers. One is the cost of it being cheaper than commercially available solutions. And the other is, how low the emissions can go. So what we have here is a chart of the different land transport based vehicles that are available today and Aravind Muthiah: The chart here basically indicates if the vehicle is other up towards your goal. The top more Squadron towards the right now you have a very competitive case of hydrogen powered vehicles with a very low information. Well, if it’s closer towards the corner towards the left working Aravind Muthiah: The competition is quite high, meaning that additional fields are better. And in terms of low carbon again the emissions are higher with hydrogen so it’s not particularly viable Aravind Muthiah: So what we see here is on the top riders were Aravind Muthiah: Any, any vehicle would like to repeat and new fuels about making would like to be and what we see is heavy duty trucks are right Aravind Muthiah: And this is the area that Nicola, the company is focusing on Aravind Muthiah: Driver drive its innovation Aravind Muthiah: The other areas that are equally viable long distance purchase these are buses between cities and long distance urban buses, as well as a short distance Aravind Muthiah: The reason these Aravind Muthiah: These particular vehicles have been highlighted so that we can delve deeper into the case study later and see now why exactly they seem to be so valuable Aravind Muthiah: Both on the admission side as well as the Aravind Muthiah: competition with the additional solutions in terms of cost Aravind Muthiah: When you look at maritime sector and I had previously mentioned, the small regional very as well as the robots, which is also quite a large regional theory and these two are on the left hand side of this Aravind Muthiah: quadrants that we have. So in terms of competition with Aravind Muthiah: Conventional solutions. These are not yet there and that’s primarily because they still have a bit of time to go between 2025 to 2030 Aravind Muthiah: Actually be like a move towards the right hand side and definitely viable competitor existence solutions when it comes to aviation, you can see it’s quite far on the left Aravind Muthiah: And that’s where the push still requires a lot more time before hydrogen fuel cells can be for the ride. So now let’s focus on this particular sector where we’re looking at Rock transport vehicles and those which are immediately viable and how they compare to battery electric vehicles Aravind Muthiah: So the chart here shows the timeline again for this particular vehicles Aravind Muthiah: In terms of Aravind Muthiah: The earliest sort of echoes that can be realized are between the 2020 and 2025 range and they are the urban buses Aravind Muthiah: The small ferry Aravind Muthiah: And the heavy duty chunks Aravind Muthiah: When it comes to other Waco, such as aviation and the large very we have to be a bit more longer 2013 Aravind Muthiah: Now when we look at the the two main sort of vehicles Aravind Muthiah: From the road transport side heavy duty trucks, as well as large passenger vehicles Aravind Muthiah: These are the highest quantity on the road Aravind Muthiah: The they split across Aravind Muthiah: How, how much goes into this total cost of ownership is provided to you that are four main drivers, which contribute to the cost of a hydrogen label Aravind Muthiah: The first is the hydrogens production where it gets us hydrogen from the second is the hydrogen distribution. The third is the equipment CapEx, so that is the vehicle and it’s user. And then the fourth is the optics. So as you can see, for

Aravind Muthiah: Heavy duty trucks. The key driver is Aravind Muthiah: The key driver is the hydrogen production. It takes about 40% of your total costs while distribution is the next segment. So Aravind Muthiah: Nikolas model of Aravind Muthiah: Basically leasing out their solution is many to power this sort of signed up kind of where they they produce the hydrogen on their own and they set up distribution networks for their on Aravind Muthiah: fuel. Fuel powered hydrogen fuel cell power trucks. So the, the, they’re hoping to drive down costs here so that they can make a profit Aravind Muthiah: Well, if the focus is purely on the fuel cell which wants to get on a 30% of the total costs. The impact is not as much Aravind Muthiah: When it comes to large passenger vehicles, the situation is by the core focus is on the equipment, because that occupies more than 60% of your Aravind Muthiah: Total Cost of Ownership of the vehicle. And that’s where when Williams likes a BMW Toyota, Honda looking into hydrogen. This is where they’re trying to drive down the cost, so that these vehicles are more live so you can see for different classes of vehicles Aravind Muthiah: Since the drivers are different, the sort of business models that need to be adopted are also required to be Aravind Muthiah: Now here’s an example of how for a large passenger vehicle. The, the costs can be dropped over time and make it on par with be Aravind Muthiah: So right now for a large passenger vehicle this whole segment here constitutes around 47.2 USD cents per kilometer driven Aravind Muthiah: And bump in comparison, the Battery Electric Vehicle is nearly half the 26.4 so to drive down costs Aravind Muthiah: The key requirements are for us to scale up production. So you have economies of scale that would be a key driver hundred using plus almost 20% and the second sector is then scaling up even more focus on hundreds of combined or any Aravind Muthiah: Time is transitioning to hire refueling sisters the larger hydrogen reform refueling station so he charges pencil Aravind Muthiah: And this in turn would mean that a particular asset in the form of a hydrogen refueling point would be used by multiple vehicles so that spreads out the cost and therefore reduces the cost of this Aravind Muthiah: And finally, the last way to reduce is on how we are producing a hydrogen. This is on our promises making improvements and technology, as well as killing it up Aravind Muthiah: Producing through the new ones. So that’s where electrolysis of Aravind Muthiah: Water can produce hydrogen, we’re driving down the bus by 5% here for a minute or two sort of reduction required for fuel cell vehicles on the passenger segment to compete with Aravind Muthiah: Now across different Aravind Muthiah: Because segments, you have different sort of Aravind Muthiah: Total Cost of Ownership or base of hydrogen per kg Aravind Muthiah: Now, Aravind Muthiah: What we what has been observed is when it’s when this monster of hydrogen being provided to awaken at the nozzle. So these are the pump at which the vehicle as being different. When that price of hydrogen is between four to six USD per kg. That’s where nearly 50% of use cases Aravind Muthiah: Of land based transport can start adopting hydrogen Aravind Muthiah: Right now with the systems like natural gas Nicola has been able to push down costs to around two USD per kid. So that’s where they have a huge advantage Aravind Muthiah: But able to easily cater to this heavy duty and medium duties Aravind Muthiah: So I seen in this chart, the key vehicles that will break through first or the heavy duty medium UT a long range vehicles. These are the ones which have Aravind Muthiah: Even a higher cost of hydrogen makes sense in moving people around smaller vehicles require on the tree us Dr law. So when

Aravind Muthiah: When you’re on Musk is the fuel cells are basically full itself is mainly coming from the perspective of a small battery, but when it comes to larger vehicles, it seems to make sense to switch to hydrogen. When this sort of price point is Aravind Muthiah: Now when we look at the hydrogen more Aravind Muthiah: Technology powering any vehicle. The Cure core technology that is required is new feudalism and the value chain of that is important to understand when either any startup is looking to get into the space or investors, we can play someone Aravind Muthiah: So the fuel the value chain consists of five segments. First is the fuel itself, or maybe it’s a few times Aravind Muthiah: A second is the fuel processor. This is basically your fuel. So how, so one key difference that needs to be noted between a fuel cell and a battery is a battery stores as well as converts energy, meaning it stored energy in a chemical phone and then converted to electrical form and needed Aravind Muthiah: A few others and is different. It doesn’t store energy on the conduits Aravind Muthiah: Whatever fuel is provided to electricity. So the fuel processor here refers to the viewers and Aravind Muthiah: The third is how you brought this yourselves together to build a stack Aravind Muthiah: The fourth part is assembling a staff together Aravind Muthiah: For a particular application and then try and lead deploying the application in the form of the way so I get into this one by one. So on the few other side we have brought Dave five different types of fuels hydrogen itself Aravind Muthiah: Different types of alcohol. The most preferred is methanol natural gas ammonia gasoline and diesel Aravind Muthiah: Each one of these would work differently with different types of solid different type of filter. So it’s important for residuals of yourself based on the sort of all, if you will, that is intended to be used Aravind Muthiah: If you want to present will also comes in multiple types, get into that in the next slide Aravind Muthiah: Essentially, they are very similar to battery cells. They are either punched or in between takes. And they are all back together in the form of that stacks converted a model Aravind Muthiah: To the stack itself consists of multiple box. Yeah. Not cathode electrolyte membrane interconnect. This is where each startup can provide different sort of services Aravind Muthiah: Once the stack is built balancing the stack for seals metaphors bus bars and know providing support structure would be the next value add in terms of any company that is looking to provide to enter the validation Aravind Muthiah: Under assembly. We are mainly looking at electronics and piping. So how do you condition the power monitor temperature Aravind Muthiah: Fit in the pipes involves Aravind Muthiah: Building the cooling pumps the enclosure to keep it safe humidifier and also how this interface with the way Aravind Muthiah: So this entire sector comes more under system integration and then translate to the vehicle itself. Right. It has to blend with the power train warranty or another Aravind Muthiah: Normal units that we see in an electric vehicle. So one key thing to note is that fuel cells are not shy power devices, meaning they cannot provide Aravind Muthiah: Energy in short bursts. They are more geared for marathon type of applications, rather than for sprinter type of applications. So that’s why in Aravind Muthiah: Almost every fuel cell would need a sort of high power, energy storage device with it, which will be in the form of an electric investor morality my own battery geared to provide that sort of tie palaces, that are required Aravind Muthiah: So that the diagram here Aravind Muthiah: Provides an idea of how this all comes together. So you have the core of the system, which is the fuel spec. If you’re so stuck on a desert fields and system box and you have the worker type trains ECU and the bracket buster to provide the model Aravind Muthiah: As well as a tank. So as you can see the fuel cell is separate from the time and that’s the key difference between industry and other fuels. So battery. Both of these are actually combine

Aravind Muthiah: Now, Aravind Muthiah: In a passenger vehicle, what I had mentioned that earlier that the key driver of a high cost of the hydrogen powered system is the fuel. So, or the CapEx for the fuels and so this entire system would be a full focus for a passenger a while for a fleet Aravind Muthiah: Hydrogen fleet of trucks not heavy duty vehicles Aravind Muthiah: It’s not necessarily focus on this, but more production and distribution Aravind Muthiah: And we look at the different types of fuel cells that are available. There are many Aravind Muthiah: Five, six main types, you have the BMS which is the polymer electrolytes membrane fuel cell which is the most common, then the glenfield so phosphoric acid, more than carbonate solid upside direct material. So the there are a number of applications for each one of these Aravind Muthiah: Sort of fuel cells like different types of batteries can go into different types of applications, but primarily what is look for and transport is mobility Aravind Muthiah: So, Aravind Muthiah: The BMS see the blend fuel and so and their direct methanol fields are considered the most portable and whatsoever for fuel cell vehicle applications and it comes to get scale storage. The other three are more suitable Aravind Muthiah: Now these fuel cells need to be compared with the existing incumbents Aravind Muthiah: What we have right now is lithium ion leading the pack Aravind Muthiah: It went through the the Gartner Hype Cycle, where in the 1970s and it was hyped up to be one of the most Aravind Muthiah: Portable energy storage solutions and finally made by Exxon Aravind Muthiah: But only now are we seeing its full realization. So that’s a good 40 years or so Aravind Muthiah: I’m in a dumpster field sounds they’ve started the game I’ve mentioned in the 1980s 90s in a big way. There was a hype that Aravind Muthiah: But what we see now is a move towards a more mature solution Aravind Muthiah: Where standards are coming into place and this yourselves are being more sought after. It’s also being driven by the two of the factors mentioned in the stock of this webinar. The lower carbon emissions Aravind Muthiah: As well as Aravind Muthiah: The sort of energy requirements that are needed for these vehicles Aravind Muthiah: So, Aravind Muthiah: When compared to the other type of batteries available. So let him sulfide Redux low sodium ion litigation mile and sodium and right now with yourself seem to be the best, but in terms of lithium air Aravind Muthiah: We are still in the process of blocking which exact fuel cell would be better than you can imagine, which would be worse off than the denied the majority skip Aravind Muthiah: And we will give our partners updated as we brought the different fuel cells on the spot. But essentially, we see that the fuel cells have these two point of maturity and are translating towards Aravind Muthiah: Competing with within my own Aravind Muthiah: Needs fuel cells are being sold in different markets Aravind Muthiah: And all of them have seven sales. So, what we have seen is the production membrane PMS, your promotion in been having the highest sales, followed closely by Aravind Muthiah: PSTN. So I see Aravind Muthiah: Whether the largest adopters of yourselves seem to be Asia and Aravind Muthiah: Asia driven primarily by China and Aravind Muthiah: There are a number of companies which are producing these in Singapore. So we have horizon Aravind Muthiah: prison systems right officer equal labs at center Aravind Muthiah: In the clean tech Park, but there are a few other companies as well spec chronic is another company which is doing a bit of integration in Singapore and we are working with some of these companies who have them take their products to market Aravind Muthiah: Now there are a number of startups dealing with a number of these different challenges that we have seen so far Aravind Muthiah: Primarily on the sell side and materials for yourselves

Aravind Muthiah: And we basically are working towards classifying them on a scale of technology versus market Aravind Muthiah: This this chart is still in progress. But what we have seen as a lot of the company is fall into the emerging market Aravind Muthiah: Emerging Technology where it is at a tiara or four to six meaning concept has been demonstrated and companies have been in the process of building a prototype and these are also for emerging markets. The markets are not yet ready Aravind Muthiah: So essentially these companies would would love to move into the mature stage of high do as well as a mature market our idea is that is emerging Aravind Muthiah: And that’s where you can live in slums in the provide infrastructure and financial support. So the company is can make this setup translation and we work with investor partners as well, can make this happen Aravind Muthiah: With that, I can probably take a short break and ask for questions and then we can dive into one of the case studies that I have prepared with respect to electric buses Ryan Jin: I think we are a bid for it and sharing it. We have quite a few questions. Maybe let me start with the first one. Before we go into the audience questions Ryan Jin: Are you mentioned that the key driver for cell innovation are very, very much concentrated in Japan, China and Korea Ryan Jin: And you also mentioned that most of the current deployment happen in Asia and North America. So what do you think would be the key driver to accelerate is commercialization of for hydrogen fuel cell sector Ryan Jin: And these are just additional follow up questions to think to hydrogen will be the lynching. And that you start a solution and, at which time point to take you Aravind Muthiah: Yeah, thanks. And so there are two parts to it Aravind Muthiah: The first part is, do you think hydrogen pretty repeated beating hydrogen would be Ryan Jin: That means she energy storage Aravind Muthiah: Okay, yeah, so Aravind Muthiah: For hydrogen Aravind Muthiah: The key thing is the application Aravind Muthiah: It becomes mainstream specific to an application. I don’t think from what I’ve seen so far, hydrogen can replace batteries. They work in tandem Aravind Muthiah: Like for Aravind Muthiah: As I showed you that are different costs involved there. Hydrogen breaks, even with batteries. In some cases, it does not at all. So, Aravind Muthiah: It will become mainstream in the sense that for certain applications where downtime is a big issue. That’s why you’re looking at heavy duty vehicles foreclosures mining systems buses Aravind Muthiah: There, it’s a big problem to spend time on charging and fuel cells would make on mainstream there for passenger vehicles and other segments, it seems more likely than electric vehicles would be with either not Ryan Jin: All right, thank you so much. Well, we have a few questions Ryan Jin: From the audience of Victor, which would like to voice on questions by giving you Ryan Jin: That you can unmute yourself and ask a question Hi, good morning Aravind Muthiah: Good explanation. So my question is basically, because many countries right now really have an ongoing MIT for deployment of electrical, sorry, sorry I’m not able to hear you clearly do speak a bit louder victor sun: Show. Is this better Aravind Muthiah: Yeah, that’s better victor sun: Okay, great. So once again, thank you for your presentation. So victor sun: My question relates to the ongoing what maps by the different countries because Kevin Ed has brought maps to rock electric vehicles already victor sun: And so now if putting into the mix the potential for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. How does that gel with the existing roadmaps for for the deployment of electric vehicles Aravind Muthiah: Okay, so if I don’t think Aravind Muthiah: They come. I mean, so I’ve gone through a few of these roadmaps particularly China’s Aravind Muthiah: Because they are the ones who drove the battery revolution and it’s highly likely that they’re going to drive the hydrogen revolution as well Aravind Muthiah: So from what I’ve seen, they have not tried to gel it with what happens on the electric side these are two separate segments. They treat it that way Aravind Muthiah: In the roadmap, but outside of the roadmap of the the incentives that they offer to companies like the current battery vehicle companies in China, for example

Aravind Muthiah: They are the incentives are geared towards higher and higher energy density is or certain certain values which push the manufacturer or OEM to move towards hydrogen. So that’s how they reorient the industry, but not in the roadmap itself. They don’t try to gel book to get Aravind Muthiah: Does that answer your question victor sun: Yes, thank you so much. Okay Ryan Jin: Thank you so much. Are we have a question from George. What would you like to unmute yourself Ryan Jin: To speak Joshua Lin: Hi, good morning, everyone. Thanks, Dr. Ravi in for for the presentation. I think I learned a lot today being a fuel cell new Joshua Lin: And my question is, can you share more about how Kyra fuel cells handling contaminants like carbon monoxide which can lead to efficiency loss or how current technologies handling this Aravind Muthiah: Okay, that’s a good question. So I’m not Aravind Muthiah: fully immersed in fuel cell technology. So I won’t probably be able to produce the best answer for you, but I can give you some suggestions of how they handle it. So, Aravind Muthiah: That the poor issue with these sort of contaminants is they can they can react with the catalyst and make them inactive Aravind Muthiah: Therefore based the catalyst which are quite expensive. So way to handle this would be to use sacrificial catalysts cheaper catalysts to react with the contaminants and probably go out as best not but this is a suggestion. So I’m not fully sure about how the contaminants Joshua Lin: Okay, got it. Thank you so much. Yeah Ryan Jin: Thank you all. We have a question from liquor. Liquor, would you like to unmute yourself and ask a question Aravind Muthiah: Hello, sorry, I can’t hear you. Again, sorry Ryan Jin: Hello. Okay, I can’t hear you as well. So maybe there’s some technical issue or maybe our voice out the car question Ryan Jin: Okay, and hydrogen us as an energy source in artists actors Ryan Jin: I didn’t transport, such as manufacturing on all buildings Aravind Muthiah: Yes, predominantly hydrogen has three use cases. One is an industry. The second is in building systems and the third is transport Aravind Muthiah: The reason we are focusing on transport here is as I showed in one of the earlier roadmap sites, most of the countries would like to develop Aravind Muthiah: hydrogen economy for transport first before adapting it to different other use cases. So this means that that’s where the technology is needed. First, and that’s why I’ve helped on them, but at a later date, maybe we can address the buildings as well as in frustration Ryan Jin: All right, we have Henry’s knuckle do. Would you like to unmute yourself and ask the question Aravind Muthiah: Arises northwestern could Ryan Jin: Be a big mountain Nakul Naphade: How about this Aravind Muthiah: Out loud Nakul Naphade: Okay, can you guys can you Can anyone hear me now Aravind Muthiah: Yeah, we can hear you, but your wises up but please go ahead. No problem Nakul Naphade: Okay, I just I just followed through. I’m curious about Nakul Naphade: the maritime sector and you’d shown a graph, if you could just go back to the graph, please just be more useful as I find my question Nakul Naphade: Yes. Okay Nakul Naphade: In this one, yeah. So you can see that the the fuel cell power train CapEx is only 1% and the hydrogen fuel ranges between 12 to, you know, 30% Nakul Naphade: And the other cost of ownership is mostly for other equipment auxiliary equipment and the other running of the ship. So what are the assumptions in this graph. And why is there such a steep curve Nakul Naphade: Heading downwards to 2013 in both cases Aravind Muthiah: Okay. So one of the key factors driving the steepness is from my understanding the IMO regulations which kicking over time to reduce Aravind Muthiah: reduce emissions. So that’s why, if you look at this, the diesel line. It goes up. So this is Mindy and regulation and post now

Aravind Muthiah: When, when you look at this, if your question is on this drop. So it is fairly normal so I probably don’t have a slide on this year but Aravind Muthiah: The technology development slot for fuel cells follows something very similar to batteries. And so there is an initial fast drop in costs and then it levels out after something I’m Aravind Muthiah: Sorry, what was the other question Aravind Muthiah: Why assumptions me Nakul Naphade: Yes. Yes. What are the assumptions me Aravind Muthiah: Okay, so the assumptions here are primarily that Aravind Muthiah: OK, I can tell in terms of the costs that are mentioned here. The 1% 2% percent Aravind Muthiah: So the various here have been best of deployments in in Europe and those have served as the numbers for this particular estimate Aravind Muthiah: The CapEx requirements are based on the shipbuilding costs. So one of the most expensive part of the ship is its Holland other aspects of it. So that’s why Aravind Muthiah: They’ve taken a baseline of how much is required to build these ships and that function constitutes the epics and dumped off optics. The assumptions have been mended through the deployments that have been done so far in Europe Nakul Naphade: Okay, thank you. I just have another question as well Yeah Nakul Naphade: So, you see. So, so we know that the storage and production of hydrogen is crucial to bringing down Nakul Naphade: The Nakul Naphade: Increasing the viability in all sectors land and and water Nakul Naphade: Which are the most viable solutions in, let’s say, now and in the next five to 10 years in storage and production Aravind Muthiah: So my focus so far has been on the on and use going forward, I would be looking at production and distribution as well. So right now, unfortunately don’t have an answer for that Aravind Muthiah: The focus, as I said, is mainly on use cases Nakul Naphade: Okay, no problem. Thank you. Quite a detailed presentation so far. Thank you Aravind Muthiah: Okay, thanks Ryan Jin: Thank you so much, or I think I believe we have a few more question, but may I suggest that you run through to kiss it first before then we come back to the question Aravind Muthiah: Okay, sure. I can run through that person defect Aravind Muthiah: So, Aravind Muthiah: So, Aravind Muthiah: Use a final set of slides on the case study itself and Aravind Muthiah: Just to refresh your memory on the on one of the slides where I had Aravind Muthiah: portrayed the different vehicles in terms of Aravind Muthiah: Maturity Aravind Muthiah: In terms of Aravind Muthiah: Carbon emissions versus portal Aravind Muthiah: versus conventional fields we noticed that the buses were on the top right part of the of the of the quarter and Aravind Muthiah: The reason they were there was what I’m going to delve into right now. So for buses Aravind Muthiah: In the hydrogen powered buses fall under the electric bus category, but there are multiple ways of uploading an electric bus. So that’s what the first Aravind Muthiah: Brought here shows you know lithium ion fuel cell lead acid nickel metal hydride and other forms as you can see right now 2018 2019 the core focus has been on the demo Aravind Muthiah: And they take up more than 75% of the market share. So in terms of a few also, it’s still not yet deployed in a big way Aravind Muthiah: However, when you look at Aravind Muthiah: The fuel cell vehicles itself. So in terms of Aravind Muthiah: Fuel Cell Vehicles can mute yourselves can be used to power passes cars commercial or industrial vehicles low Speedway called scooters, a number of these types. So under that category, we can see that there has been a steady growth of fuel. Fuel so powered vehicles here Aravind Muthiah: Many going from 4 billion worth of USD what of market or to almost doubling in 2024. So that’s the expectation we have and the predominant sector under this is Aravind Muthiah: Passes which has the same sort of propellers lithium has for the entire ecosystem. So what do you see as masses have more than 80% of the entire market in terms of fuel cells. And that’s where the stars, they seem to start making sense. If that were the case study here is focused on

Aravind Muthiah: Now the fuel cell mass market alone is growing at 11.2% compounded annually and it’s as I said expected to hit around $7 billion in USD played really meaningful Aravind Muthiah: So now in the buses segment. There are three main types you have Aravind Muthiah: The Urban short distance. So this is basically what we see in Singapore, yo. If you do area 199179 this kind of buses. Then you have the long distance buses, which are basically Aravind Muthiah: Probably shuttling from, say, a bit of to Aravind Muthiah: Jerome west. And then the third type is the long haul. Coach, which is which is basically Singapore, Malaysia, what’s in the protocol and Aravind Muthiah: So these each of these buses have a different curve and a different set of requirements and that’s what makes it fascinating in terms of Aravind Muthiah: How we can see which one which particular class of vehicles will adopt hydrogen first. So the most viable seems to be the long haul. Coach, mainly because of the range involved and less or downtime. So as you can see here Aravind Muthiah: We have three calls as we saw for the books. One is for fuel cells then you have battery vehicles and the light blue and the diesel or ice engine. So as you can see by 2025 Aravind Muthiah: Fuel cells would on a total cost of ownership be much cheaper than Aravind Muthiah: Back here electric and also even compete with the diesel vehicle. So that’s a huge Aravind Muthiah: Disruption that is waiting to happen because it’s not this battery makers irrelevant but convinced the buses itself Aravind Muthiah: For long distance urban transportation, as I said, it’s from like the top journalist, it takes a bit more time where battery vehicles will first breach the barrier Aravind Muthiah: With respect to existing conventional diesel vehicles and only then would be fuel cells take over, probably in the later half of this decade 2025 to 23rd Aravind Muthiah: And finally, for short distance transportation, which is the highest Aravind Muthiah: Form of bus transport, we see in Singapore Aravind Muthiah: The chances of Aravind Muthiah: Fuel Cell overtaking battery electric vehicles seems to be rather low as you can see, even after 2015 they seem to be another mechanic Aravind Muthiah: And that’s where it makes sense. If you look at the land transport authorities sort of tenders for local buses. It is predominantly been focused on electric they have tried out two types of Aravind Muthiah: Vendors but they haven’t gone for a few hours of bus and this is primarily as you can see with this chart Aravind Muthiah: For Singapore. It doesn’t make sense to have hydrogen within the, within the country, at least for urban short distance buses Aravind Muthiah: Now when we look at the total cost of ownership, similar to the boats. It has been split into multiple sectors here and Aravind Muthiah: The Urban bus has a similar for a short distance long distance as a similar sort of constituent. So that’s why it’s one brought here while the coach a long distance bus Aravind Muthiah: Is different. So the key thing to note here is the power train which consists of the few also the supercapacitor and a few other systems Aravind Muthiah: Plus, it’s only 10% or 12% of the entire cost of the bus. So any integrations, they’re just going to cost a small dent in the total cost of ownership. I’m going to drive down your costs a lot Aravind Muthiah: However, one of the key requirements for the long distance bus is the 40% from the hydrogen fuel. So if you’re able to drive down hydrogen fuel costs in a big way. That’s where there’s a lot of impact in making that sort of a Aravind Muthiah: Vehicle viable for hydrogen deploy Aravind Muthiah: The other area to focus on for urban buses is other CapEx to this is mainly the bus body. The chassis. The app conditioning systems and all of that. So as you can see Aravind Muthiah: Big changes in even if the huge leaps in the in the power train or the fuel cell. The key impact comes only from the rest of the sectors which is the the actual body of the bus the fuel, as well as other operational costs Aravind Muthiah: So the key, the key takeaways here. Our first the full battery buses would be out competed by fuel cell buses and that would happen for the urban

Aravind Muthiah: Sorry for the long haul by 2025 and for the longest and urban by probably 2034 short range. It does not seem to outcompete an electric seems to be the preferred form of transport at 20 3050 Aravind Muthiah: Now, Aravind Muthiah: This is one of the biggest takeaways from this particular topic that we have and that is on refueling was is recharging so Aravind Muthiah: A lot of Aravind Muthiah: A lot of the economics makes sense to adopt battery electric vehicles. First, mainly because the understanding is that we have another five to 10 years before hydrogen kicks in Aravind Muthiah: But what you see here would probably make you rethink that sort of strategy. So for battery electric vehicles. The initial Aravind Muthiah: Cost per vehicle Aravind Muthiah: It’s a thousands of dollars USD per vehicle is around 4.7 when you start off with a battery electric vehicle compared to a fuel cell to 16 that’s around four times higher Aravind Muthiah: But as you keep scaling up and deploying in the form of a fleet, you have super chargers, which are which double the costs are charged and you have Aravind Muthiah: You, you, you increase utilization of existing charges which would decrease the cause, but then this is where the kicker is Aravind Muthiah: You have a seven x increase in the modification of the electricity grid to meet demand. Now what do I mean by a modification of the electricity grid. This is something we faced and Singapore and we are going to face in Singapore in the near future Aravind Muthiah: As you have said so in Singapore each bus depot has around 300 to 500 buses. So as each of these buses charges Aravind Muthiah: They are going to drop our at the same time. So the, the model that most of the Chinese fleet of buses work on is they run during the day and charge during night or Aravind Muthiah: Run during the morning, good afternoon. And during the evening and charge again. So this kind of shadow charting Aravind Muthiah: Means that a number of passes charge at the same time and that places a sudden huge peak demand on your group. This is where your needs to be modified to meet that sort of a demand. Now they’re this form of charging is called overnight charging. Now there’s another form called Aravind Muthiah: Opportunity charging where the bus probably charges at after every round trip Aravind Muthiah: So this would be at the bus interchange in the ones that would be a short five minute charge and boosts up and then goes up goes out for that route, again and again Aravind Muthiah: But again for this sort of short charging you need a sudden high power requirement which none of these bust their balls or bonds are built for Aravind Muthiah: And that’s where there needs to be a huge investment in meeting that and that’s where Fuel Cell Vehicles start becoming far more Aravind Muthiah: Worthwhile so when you go to start with a $16 $16,000 per vehicle because we go down. We have a 60% drop. When you start investing and hydrogen fueling stations because of larger stations. This will be used by multiple vehicles Aravind Muthiah: That father was down to Forex. And then finally, there’s the part where there’s a huge gap, a delta between refueling and recharging Aravind Muthiah: Where the scale up of these compression center. So you need to compress hydrogen. Let’s say you’re going for liquefied hydrogen are high pressure systems Aravind Muthiah: You need it’s far easier to scale up at a particular like a gasoline station converted to hydrogen station, rather than setting up a electricity grid Aravind Muthiah: Because the this the investment does not scale with the storage. But in the case of battery. The investment is scales linearly with the storage so Aravind Muthiah: That’s where the biggest impediment comes and even though we might be adopting battery electric vehicles now but electric buses. Now in the next few years, when we start scaling up, we will see the impacts of a higher cost to operate these vehicles Aravind Muthiah: And that’s where the hydrogen starts making more sense. But again, it, it, it, both of them have pros and cons Aravind Muthiah: Electric vehicles. The Pro is that it’s a lower upfront cost and the higher cost for infrastructure hitter for battery electric vehicles. It’s both high up front

Aravind Muthiah: For the vehicle as well as infrastructure, but then it goes cheaper as you scale your fleet Aravind Muthiah: So the lowest cost application is sensitive to a number of other local conditions. So, Aravind Muthiah: What is the local cost of electricity or what type of fuel is being used. So in Singapore if natural gas is genius and might, it might make sense to have that instead of electricity. Electricity powered buses Aravind Muthiah: We have the second factor is the availability of edible infrastructure, it’s far easier to retrofit a current gasoline station with hydrogen equipment, rather than charging station Aravind Muthiah: Tardis. What sort of range is required for that particular locality for the vehicles. And finally, what mileage is expected of me Aravind Muthiah: So just to sum up the key takeaways from this Dr. Three, four Aravind Muthiah: Expect to see hydrogen vase based buses and heavy duty vehicles mainly forklifts and trucks within the next five years. This is not too far out Aravind Muthiah: And this my will most definitely outcompete batteries battery powered vehicles. The second is Aravind Muthiah: The charging infrastructure, also a battery powered vehicles is the greatest impediment said showed earlier, which is seven x increase that is that comes in later down the line Aravind Muthiah: And can disrupt a lot of economics and the third key takeaway is on the amount of time sector expect to see 2025 to 2030 being the point when smaller ships, I replied randomly fairies, and then there would be a scale up for discussion Aravind Muthiah: Thank you so much. I’m open to questions. And yeah, please feel free to ask Aravind Muthiah: Counseling Ryan Jin: ACR up in our because we are people votes overrun by the timing. So Ryan Jin: Let me make some announcements before we jump back to the 20 so Ryan Jin: Thank you so much for the institution or the hydrogen potential and opportunity Ryan Jin: Or Ryan Jin: At the end of this webinar therapy severe for the audience to be fit back to enhance or future webinar. So I encourage on to our Ryan Jin: Different inputs on the survey and help us continue to present excellence webinar for the audience. So to follow us on the labs making patient. Join us live next Monday Ryan Jin: On the 15th of June at treated appear for the nice color webinar series to be collapse STG X webinar series. Part two on startup ecosystem. So now coming back to the Q AMP a Ryan Jin: Just have another question, Soldier soldier like to voice of questions Ryan Jin: OK, so maybe I’ll ask a question for Tucson. We have to foresee cast a vision of the future, having full battery charging for passenger country EV and hydrogen top on infrastructure for the trucks are in the future Aravind Muthiah: Um, it’s a good question Aravind Muthiah: There are a lot of safety issues when you have charging and hydrogen side by side. So Aravind Muthiah: I would rather I think it’s highly likely that Aravind Muthiah: EV charging infrastructure would be really relegated to car parks in the form of items, while hydrogen would be in a dedicated gas station Aravind Muthiah: I don’t think they would mix together Ryan Jin: Okay Ryan Jin: All right Ryan Jin: Oh, we have Ryan Jin: Some questions from our heritage, Turkish, would you like to unmute yourself and voice operations Parikshit Kulkarni: Person Parikshit Kulkarni: Thanks for sharing. Yeah Parikshit Kulkarni: I actually have two questions Parikshit Kulkarni: One was that, what would be the dollar per kg mark where the balance with deep towards the fuel cells compared to the TVs in Singapore Parikshit Kulkarni: Of course, like you mentioned, rightly, there is a cost of infrastructure to be built up when it comes to the power charging stations as well as you know, the peak demand as well Parikshit Kulkarni: Yeah, compared to a hydrogen ecosystem, wherein Parikshit Kulkarni: You have charging stations and charging happens in like a normal fuel, you know, fuel station kind of stuff. So it’s hard, it takes like a minute to fill up and then you just move on Parikshit Kulkarni: So that was the first question in terms of the dollar per kg cost in Singapore. And the second question I had was Parikshit Kulkarni: In terms of the the disposal of the batteries. So although there could be a wave of, you know, change or from the conventional diesel to a battery now

Parikshit Kulkarni: But another 10 years down the line when it comes to the disposal of all these batteries. That would be a cost of disposal due to environmental concerns Parikshit Kulkarni: And was that factor into, you know, the kind of the viability, we are talking about or, you know, given an option Parikshit Kulkarni: Of and obviously, like you mentioned, there is a high CapEx for a fuel cell infrastructure as well as the vehicle. Now you invest in that, but you don’t have this, you know, you know, kind of Parikshit Kulkarni: Issue later on after 10 years Parikshit Kulkarni: Of and then of course there’s the second context to it, which is a double investment, where in your you already, you know, kind of invest in the electrical Parikshit Kulkarni: The battery infrastructure as well as the vehicle and then later on, you’re going to switch over to fuel cells. So, and putting all these in the context of a countries Parikshit Kulkarni: A few policies so be it. Hydrogen been available for Parikshit Kulkarni: Even power production. I mean, power generation Parikshit Kulkarni: You know, a switch from a national guest to hydrogen going on from 2030 onwards that food also significantly dropped. The cost of hydrogen per kg Parikshit Kulkarni: So in a long term for organizations to make that move whether should they be skipping over you know the electrical ocean and the batteries and just want to FCS although that could be, you know, high CapEx investments up front Aravind Muthiah: Yeah, I think that’s good. So three questions. Probably just start with the first one Aravind Muthiah: The cost of hydrogen in Singapore, so Aravind Muthiah: We are in the process of developing the economic estimates for that what we have right now is just from an understanding on the US side. So what we see is people are able to drive it down to two USD per kg for natural gas based hydrogen Aravind Muthiah: And that is that makes it quite viable in terms of competing with the electric vehicles so Aravind Muthiah: In terms of Singapore’s number. We’ll have to get back to you. I think once we are done with our report we will be sharing a lot of this information and you can get it from that. The second question on batteries. Yes, it is a big problem, the recycling has not been considered in this cost Aravind Muthiah: And for this, it’s also not being considered for the fuels on both sides. We are mainly looked at well to view not from wheel to end of life just Aravind Muthiah: So that is a huge difficulty in battery recycling, we, we see a lot of opportunity for startups to pursue this in Eclipse itself. We are supporting Aravind Muthiah: One particular startup, which is looking to scale of its technology to treat Aravind Muthiah: This Aravind Muthiah: Battery waste, but one of the key challenges with battery waste is not so much the quantity, but the fact that there are different types of chemistries Aravind Muthiah: If we are able to standardize to either Aravind Muthiah: Two or three chemistry is one for high energy one for high power and one for hybrid that would drive down recycling and make it more viable a lot more there there are technologies to do that Aravind Muthiah: But it’s this sort of mixed feedstock in the form of batteries that comes in that causes a lot of problems, so that a macro question, it’s not been included in this cost and your final question on hydrogen, whether Aravind Muthiah: The, the government should have the book or the industry should look at Aravind Muthiah: Switching to it, even though it’s high CapEx Aravind Muthiah: I would say at least from the sort of Aravind Muthiah: roadmaps that we are providing timeline Aravind Muthiah: If you’re probably not in the Aravind Muthiah: In the, in the bus or public transport industry, it’s not urgent, urgent need to switch right now, you still have a decade to go before the Aravind Muthiah: The playability start kicking in. So it might be a case of switching too early, so probably not the best idea to switch off switch, switch to hydrogen immediately. Yeah Parikshit Kulkarni: Yeah. So actually, what I meant was, because from 2025 months as, as we see hydrogen being kind of introduced into the Singapore market for a non production and manufacturing purposes. And then from there on, Parikshit Kulkarni: Organizations with big fleet, they can consider the transition and that transition can happen over the next, you know, five to eight years because depending on the current fleet

Parikshit Kulkarni: That we age to it and once it’s fully depreciated and then they’ll make the change. So, so the slow injection of fuel cell vehicles after 2025, you know, coming towards Parikshit Kulkarni: And that was the context and was kind of referring to, because obviously because you want to make the change. The electrical Parikshit Kulkarni: Once we missed you know 2025 onwards, that Parikshit Kulkarni: Will kind of you know again last for another 1015 years and then you would have no business cycles for for fuel cells Aravind Muthiah: Yes, I agree with that. I think beyond 2025 definitely I think it needs to have a real open consider, but I guess next five years. I don’t see a need. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think Parikshit Kulkarni: Next five years, we may be, may not have enough information as well Parikshit Kulkarni: As you Aravind Muthiah: Know selected Ryan Jin: Have one last question. Thank you so much, sorry. I’ll have one last question from hands on. Why do you expect the total cost of ownership for internal combustion engine process to come out in the next 10 years Aravind Muthiah: Okay, so question so Aravind Muthiah: From Aravind Muthiah: I need to have a look at the assumptions in this particular study Aravind Muthiah: Our four core focus was not so much an icy but on the hydrogen and battery electric vehicles, but I can have a look at this and get back to the from my understanding the the understand the The pastas with Aravind Muthiah: The normal reduction in cost over time with adoption of a technology Aravind Muthiah: But it’s, it’s something I can get back to you Ryan Jin: All right, thank you so much. And thank you so much for sharing our ideas very insightful and very interactive session that we have today, and thank you audience to join us. It is a session and the interaction Ryan Jin: Or just a gentle reminder. At the end of this of this session to be as severe for you to give it back to enhance our future our webinars and to join us live next Monday 15 Ryan Jin: Children are treated for the collapse STG X webinar series on startup ecosystem. Thank you so much and have a good day. Bye bye Aravind Muthiah: Thank you. Bye bye